ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Joining me live now, Aged Care and Seniors Minister Sam Rae. Thanks for your time, Sam Rae. Can I get a reaction, first of all, to the Opposition's proposed immigration cuts and what it would mean for the aged care industry? Between 40 and 50 per cent of aged care workers are born outside Australia.
SAM RAE, MINISTER FOR AGED CARE AND SENIORS: Yeah, good afternoon, Andrew. Look, I'm really concerned about what we've heard from the Opposition today. I don't think anyone's fooled. We're watching the Liberals and the Nationals chase One Nation around by the tail, and I mean, it's quite ridiculous. You've got Angus Taylor out there slagging off One Nation and then trying to copy their policies and be One Nation lite. Look, that's a matter for them at the end of the day.
Although, we do have to be clear, and when it comes to our care sector, when it comes to looking after older people and, indeed, looking after people all across our community we do rely on skilled migration to do that, and what the Opposition have announced puts that care at risk. We've got to be upfront. They need to be clear with Australians. Which workers in the aged care sector are going to be sent home, which workers in our healthcare sector, in our construction sector building our houses> Who are they going to put on planes and send home here?
CLENNELL: Yeah. Well, Jane Hume arguing against that, saying we're having the skilled people and it won't be a problem. What did you make of that?
RAE: I thought what we saw was some fast footwork. You were putting some pretty decent questions to Senator Hume. I think the reality is, they don't have answers on this. This is a political play. They're chasing One Nation around. We need to have a sensible conversation about sustainable migration. It needs to be focused on our national interest. It needs to be focused on keeping our economy strong and looking after people across our economy.
Every day for me, I spend my time with personal care workers and nurses and people who've either got their skills here in Australia and sometimes overseas. But you're absolutely right, when it comes to the aged care sector we rely on these people to look after our parents and our grandparents. They shouldn't be played politics with.
CLENNELL: Well, do we have workforce issues at the aged care sector at the moment? Do you concede that?
RAE: We've got very significant challenges. The reality is, with an ageing population, Andrew, this is one of the great public policy challenges of our time. Demand for aged care services is through the roof. And of course, we need these incredible human beings, highly skilled workers, to come and provide that care across a spectrum of roles. If we get into this tailspin of politics, demonising people who are caregivers, care workers, highly skilled care workers, I mean, we're going to destroy our economy. I mean, that's part of the problem here. We're also going to fail older people across our economy. It's a terrible situation.
CLENNELL: Now, you know, I asked you on because I want to talk about this News Corp report from last week about the cost being charged in the Support at Home program. Now, they've called it the Care Repair investigation, the Daily Telegraph and other papers. They found that one aged care provider is charging 354 bucks a session with an allied health assistant, despite the same service costing 86 bucks, under the NDIS. This is a horrendous taxpayer rip-off, isn't it?
RAE: Look, Andrew, it's obvious to anyone that older people in our country, people who built our country and our communities, deserve dignified, high-quality aged care, and the Government's been very clear that providers must charge reasonable prices for the services that they are delivering. It's why we have strengthened the consumer protections in this space. They are now stronger than they have ever been in our country. And we have a commission, the Aged Care Quality and Safety Commission, who have the powers, the government has given them the powers, to investigate any provider who's not doing the right thing in this space.
I should say, Andrew, with approaching 400,000 Australians within the Support at Home program, which only began in November last year, we've got a lot of providers, and most of them are doing the right thing. They're very focused on looking after older people. We do have a few bad eggs in there, and it's why we've empowered the Commission to be so strong, to have those powers of investigation, and to go after any provider who does the wrong thing.
CLENNELL: Well, how many people have they gone after so far?
RAE: Well, they've conducted ongoing investigations. Every older person- people have standing to take these sorts of issues to the Commission. Many have. Some of them-
CLENNELL: How many have they actually taken on so far? Do you know?
RAE: Well, if you'd like, I can come back to you with a precise number in terms of the investigation. I can get that from the Commission for you. But I have regular meetings with the Commissioner. We've got a commission in place that has the powers, it has the skills, has the capacity to hold the sector accountable in the interests of older people.
CLENNELL: Well, it’d certainly be useful to have that figure if you're going to come on and talk about it. Now look, I wanted to ask you about a submission to a Senate inquiry on this from the Pearl Home Care CEO, Penny Fielding, who said that under this new scheme, which came into place under Anika Wells, your predecessor, announced a year or two ago, admin had skyrocketed because of unnecessary complexity and administrative work for providers and clients. She claimed that the total additional claiming load was 320 staff hours per week for her organisation and aged care nurses were having to be moved into admin work. Is it too bureaucratic, your new scheme? Is that forcing the cost up?
RAE: I don't want to necessarily address the specifics of that claim. But let's just talk about the history of how we got to this point, Andrew. Of course, we had a Royal Commission because standards within the aged care sector under the previous government had gotten so bad, so bad, that the safety of older people was regularly put at risk, and we saw some harrowing stories come out of that Royal Commission. It's why these generational reforms are so important. It's why we've made these changes. There are additional safeguards in place along the way. We've always said that we'll work with the sector and, of course, we'll work with older people to make sure that we get the settings right to deliver that dignified and high-quality care that every older Australian deserves.
CLENNELL: One gentleman told the newspaper he mows lawns for aged care clients who tell him their aged care providers routinely add 50 bucks or more on top of his $70 an hour rate. I know anecdotally of someone who’s being charged 115 bucks an hour under this scheme for their gardening. Do you except that people are generally seen to be charging more than the market rate under this scheme?
RAE: What I believe, Andrew, is that every older Australian deserves to be able to receive these services that they are entitled to and that they must be charged appropriate service rates. Now, if that is not happening, and there are many examples that have been brought to my attention, they are referred to the Commission to be properly investigated and dealt with under the law, and that's the right and appropriate thing to do.
CLENNELL: I just wonder, Minister, if there shouldn't be changes to the actual scheme or to legislation even if this- because it might be too much for a commission to go away and investigate and do hit by hit if it seems to be quite commonplace. I mean, we've got to make- the Government's got to make budget savings. I just wonder whether this needs to be kind of targeted. I hear what you're saying about the Royal Commission. Is there anything more you can do as a minister to stop what appears to be rampant overcharging?
RAE: Well, the advice that I'm getting, Andrew, is that there is not systemic overcharging occurring. As I said, the Commission has sufficient resources, and we have empowered them to be able to investigate such things. I take regular advice from the Commission on the outcomes of those investigations so that I can understand what the relationship is between the policy settings and the experience of older people.
And as I said, the vast majority of providers are doing the right thing. And in many cases, some of these conflicts between older folks and their service provider can be resolved by the Commission by opening dialogue and better explaining things. Of course,he onus is on these providers to explain their services and their prices to older people effectively. So, we're always looking to resolve those issues where possible. But again, I'll be really clear - if people are overcharging, the Commission has extensive powers to deal with any provider who's not doing the right thing by older Australians.
CLENNELL: Well, I look forward to hearing from you on how many people are being investigated. Now, the Senate inquiry also, just briefly, heard that Meals on Wheels meals have gone up as much as 40 per cent more under this program. Is that your understanding? Is that true?
RAE: I think there might be a little bit of confusion here. Most of the Meals on Wheels program delivery is done under the Commonwealth Home Support Program, which is separate to the Support at Home program. We've got about 830,000 Australians receiving services under the Commonwealth Home Support Program, and Meals on Wheels is obviously a critical component of that. It's not just about a hot meal - it's also about that critical human contact at the door, the interaction that occurs between two people-
CLENNELL: Almost out of time. Has the cost gone up?
RAE: There are certainly cost pressures across our economy. International inflationary pressures are having impacts in the aged care sector as they are in other parts of our economy, Andrew. And we need to make sure, through our program design work, that we can protect older people and ensure that those cost pressures don't become an inhibitor to them accessing the care and services they deserve.
CLENNELL: Sam Rae, out of time. Thanks so much for yours.
RAE: Thank you, Andrew.