PETER FEGAN, HOST: It was a momentous day in Parliament yesterday as Labor was handed its first defeat in the Senate. The Coalition, the Greens and the Crossbench teamed up to ensure Labor fast-tracked 20,000 Home Care Packages. Now, these are packages designed to help older Australians. The packages provide home care assistance. It's a major focus point during Parliament yesterday. The Government was forced to answer questions as to why 200,000 older Australians are still on a wait list to receive care and why an election promise to deliver 83,000 packages, these are additional ones, was delayed in the first place. The Government was also cornered into defending its Aged Care Minister after it was revealed that Sam Rae was left out of negotiations between the Coalition, Crossbench and the Government. Sam Rae says he's not playing politics on this one. And the Minister played down any political bickering. He's declared this is a fantastic outcome for older Australians and their families. And I'm pleased to say the Aged Care Minister Sam Rae joins me on the line. Minister, it's nice to have your company this morning.
SAM RAE, MINISTER FOR AGED CARE AND SENIORS: Good morning, Peter. Thanks for having me.
FEGAN: I know you’re not going to play politics, so we'll leave that for just a moment because I don't want to- I think bickering aside, there is more at play here. Now, I think- this is me, I think that you owe the Australian people an explanation. Why did the Coalition, the Crossbench and the Greens, force the Government to release 20,000 packages early? Now, you promised these packages at the last election, so you either misled the Australian people or you’ve overpromised. So which one is it?
RAE: Oh, Peter, I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding at play here. These packages were actually promised during the last term of Parliament. And when we brought down our announcement about the aged care reforms under my predecessor, Anika Wells, we announced the biggest reforms to Australia's aged care system in the history of the country. And along with it, we announced the overhaul of the in-home care program. It's currently called the Home Care Packages program, and we announced the Support at Home program which is a fundamental change to the way that care is delivered to people in their own homes. We know that older Australians want to spend longer in their homes receiving the care they need, and so that's what this is in response to. We announced at that point that the growth in demand for in-home care would require growth in the program, and so at that point we announced an additional 83,000 packages of care to be released from the beginning of the Act.
What we've had over the last couple of weeks, really good discussions on a bipartisan basis. We've always had a bipartisan principle in that we approach these particular reforms, because that's how we ensure that they are enduring and that they are meaningful for older people in our community. So we've tried to approach all these discussions on a bipartisan basis. We reached bipartisan agreement yesterday on the rollout schedule. So this is the 83,000 packages that we announced last year.
FEGAN: Minister, hang on for a moment. Bipartisan, you went kicking and screaming. The Labor Party were kicking and screaming. You had crisis meetings about all this yesterday. I will hardly say this is bipartisan. It's a win and you have gone kicking and screaming to get these 20,000 packages. And this is what I don't understand, Minister. And, just spin aside for a moment, why did it take the Crossbench, why did it take the Coalition, why did it take the Greens to force the Government's hand to release these packages? You should be on the front foot, Minister. The Government should be on the front foot saying, we're going to release these out of good faith, not kicking and screaming because we were made to do it. That's what I'm getting at.
RAE: So I think, again, Peter, there's a bit of a misunderstanding here about the nature of the program changeover and the transformation that's currently occurring. So right now, we have that Home Care Packages program, the one that we know is not meeting community needs and expectations. That's why ahead of 1 November, we're going through the process of transitioning people to the Support at Home program. Support at Home can't start until the legislation comes into effect on 1 November. So a lot of the conversation has been about whether or not Support at Home could start earlier. And because we don't have the legislative instruments in place, that is just not the case. What we've now determined is that we'll take some of the packages that we announced last year, that the Government announced last year, these are government-funded packages, these are decisions of government, Peter. We will bring some of those, 20,000 of those, back into the Home Care Packages program in order to meet the demand that we can see across our community right now. And we've had some evolving advice from the sector that they believe that they can rise to this challenge and -
FEGAN: Well, they can't do it at the moment. So, it doesn't matter what you call it, whatever you like, Support at Home, call it a Home Care Package – they can't. Do you know- Minister, do you know how hard it is to get Home Care Packages or to get assistance at home? If you don't, I've got a little insight for you. Here's a couple of my callers from this morning. Minister, this is for you.
[Excerpt]
CALLER 1: The problem is exactly as you said, people waiting in a queue, they're not getting through. My husband died three years ago -
FEGAN: I'm sorry to hear that.
CALLER 1: - so I went through a bit of it with him, and it is the fault of the Government. It's nobody else's fault. The providers- there are too many providers there. They need to cap it. And I've probably had the same cleaner for six years. In saying that, she has to have a break. And when she has a break, they can't find anybody to fill in for her.
CALLER 2: I've been through those hoops many, many times. And I just keep getting shunted down one blind alley after the next.
CALLER 3: I've just spent hours in Services Australia trying to link his Medicare to a MyGov account, which you need do to access the MyAgeCare, but they won't allow a power of attorney to do that. He has some cognitive decline now, and when they asked him identifying information on the phone, he just lost everything and couldn't answer the question. So they'll accept all my data when I go in there and will update information for him on his account, but will not allow me to link it to his MyGov account.
CALLER 4: We have an 82-year-old family member. He was approved for home assist two years ago. And every time anyone calls or tries to call a provider, they don't answer. You're on the phone for ages. And if they do answer, they say they don't have any vacancies, so they can't help.
[End of excerpt]
FEGAN: That's just a taste this morning, Minister. Now, I respect you're not playing politics on this one and you won't go the back and forth. But the reality is people in Australia, those on the wait list, I've got an 87-year-old close to me that's been waiting 12 months for care. You can call it what you will. It's not working.
RAE: I couldn't agree more, Peter. And these are incredibly sad stories. One of the great privileges of my role is that I get to spend a lot of time with older Australians, wonderful people. People who've built our country, who've been the backbones of our society and economy, and I couldn't agree more that they have not been getting the care that they need and that they deserve. It's why this reform program is so important. It's why we have worked so hard to ensure that we have bipartisan support for it and that these reforms will be enduring, and that they will be the care that these people absolutely deserve.
FEGAN: So were you left a mess by Anika Wells? Is that what you're suggesting? How come it's not working? I mean, you hung your hat on this. I mean, the Government's promised 83,000 extra. I mean, come on. This is another promise from a government that's not delivering.
RAE: Absolutely not, Peter. The reality is we've been hearing these harrowing stories ever since the Royal Commission under the previous Morrison government, and we've embarked on a once-in-a-generation set of reforms to the aged care sector that includes in the in-home care space as well as the residential care space. These are the biggest reforms that we have ever seen in Australia's aged care sector. I think we've been very clear we can't snap the fingers and fix all these problems overnight, and so we're working as quickly as we can to make sure that we have continuity of care for people but to ensure that our care systems are evolving and adapting to meet the needs of our community, including of a rapidly growing and ageing population. There’s no question about that.
FEGAN: Okay. Yeah, we need to make it easier for people.
FEGAN: Yeah, we need to make it easier for people. I've got another little- this is an 87-year-old that's close to my family – very, very close to my family, in fact. They've now been waiting over 12 months for care. She's been approved. She's now been told that these providers can't actually help her at all. She's been told to call these providers on her own. You can't tell me, and this is all government, you can't tell me that's looking after older people. You can't.
And remember, Minister, these are people that the very backbone of this country- I mean, they got us out of depressions. They worked hard post-war, they got us to where we are today. They deserve a lot better than what's being dished up.
RAE: They do, Peter. They absolutely do. Again, it's why these reforms are so very important. I was clear yesterday when we made this announcement that I still have concerns about the challenge that the sector is going to face. The sector has called over the last week, and they've sort of changed their advice to the public and the Government over the last week or so and have said that they can rise to this challenge of meeting the extra packages that we're going to fund in the system in the short term.
FEGAN: Okay.
RAE: I still have concerns, as per that point you just made about your friend. I still have concerns about the workforce dynamics, and so we're going to be really closely with the sector. They've said they can rise to this challenge. I expect them to do so, and we'll be working really closely with the sector because if these packages are funded, as they've told us they should be because they believe they can meet this challenge, I now want to see that happen.
FEGAN: Well, trust me, Australia will hold you to account on that. It's seventeen and a half after eight. My guest this morning, the Aged Care Minister, Sam Rae. Minister, let me ask you this, and I know you're probably not going to weigh in on the politics, but we need to get to the bottom of it. You made the announcement yesterday. To me, it looks like you've been hung out to dry, and I respect you for coming on this morning because you weren't involved in the discussions yesterday between Coalition, between the Greens, between the Crossbench and between Anthony Albanese and Mark Butler. Why were you left out of these negotiations yesterday?
RAE: Peter, I think your listeners will be shocked to hear that sometimes politicians can be a little petty.
FEGAN: But you're the Aged Care Minister, though. You should- you're the one fronting this. You're responsible for this, mate. This is why- I'm on your side. You're being hung out to dry here. How come you weren't involved in the negotiations?
RAE: We have had so many discussions, dozens and dozens of meetings over the last week. I'm very fortunate I get to work closely with a prime minister who believes in the aged care system and believes in the reform program-
FEGAN: Well, if he did care, it would be a lot better than what we're getting dished up, Sam. It'd be a lot better, and I do apologise to cut you off again. If he did care, it'd be a lot better than what it is. Minister, I sternly believe that you've been hung out to dry here, and that's why I'm backing you on it. Whether you were at the negotiations or not, it doesn't matter what you're telling us. I think from the outside, it's pretty clear why. And I- look, for you, I think it's unfortunate. You should have been there. You're the Aged Care Minister.
Now, before I let you go, Minister, do you mind that in the future, you and I have another chat about this? Because we have got so many different case studies and this is the first time I've chatted to you, first time we've spoken. To me, you're actually listening.
RAE: Peter, I would love to come back on at any time. I have a really wonderful job. I'm a really lucky person. As I said earlier, one of the great privileges of my job is I get to work really closely with older people across our community. I get to work really closely with the amazing workers that care for them. I love talking about aged care. I love working together and collaborating on these once-in-a-generation reforms. I'd love to keep having that conversation with you and your listeners.
FEGAN: All right, you're enthusiastic. I like it. You're a new minister, and that's what we need. We need enthusiasm. Good on you, Minister. Thanks for jumping on the line this morning. Appreciate it.
RAE: Thanks for having me, Peter.
FEGAN: There he is, the Aged Care Minister Sam Rae.