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ABC Radio National interview with Patricia Karvelas, 3 February 2022, on Aged care sector performance and aged care death and booster figures

Read the transcript of Minister Hunt's interview with Patricia Karvelas of ABC Radio National, on 3 February 2022, on Aged care sector performance and aged care death and booster figures.

The Hon Greg Hunt MP
Former Minister for Health and Aged Care

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PATRICIA KARVELAS:

ATAGI is this morning recommending a third COVID dose for all 16 and 17-year-olds as new evidence emerges that booster shots among young people continue to lag.

It comes as the Morrison Government says the aged care sector has performed exceptionally well throughout the COVID pandemic, despite reports 570 elderly residents passed away from the virus in the past four weeks alone. And it’s been revealed that almost 80,000 people in residential care are yet to receive their booster shots, despite Omicron sweeping through more than 1200 nursing homes.

Greg Hunt is the Minister for Health and Aged Care. Minister, good morning.

GREG HUNT:         

And good morning, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

More than 500 deaths in January alone, outbreaks in around 1260 nursing homes, a quarter of all shifts unfilled due to a worker shortage; how can your junior minister Richard Colbeck say the sector is performing exceptionally well?

GREG HUNT:

The challenge that we have is that, around the world, the pandemic has targeted older people. What we’ve been able to do in partnership with the sector in Australia is have over a 99 per cent vaccination rate amongst those aged care workers – one of the highest rates in the world. 91 per cent vaccination rate for residents. We’ve been able to have one of the lowest rates of loss-of-life in aged care in the world.

But it is immensely hard for so many people, as you would know. The mental health impacts on people being locked down in aged care- which is a protective mechanism for them, but at the same time it has a huge impact on their quality of life.

In many cases, it would last months or weeks or days, who may not be able to see loved ones. And so that’s the achingly difficult balance. But that's why we're very proud of what our aged care workers have done; they've done an amazing job, and why we’re supporting them with an $800 average retention bonus.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

There’s no doubt, Minister, that they’ve done an exceptional job, but the sector is not performing exceptionally well, when you look at those statistics.

GREG HUNT:

It's a challenge. It's a pandemic and sometimes some may not look around the world and see the- just the enormous human tragedy that's occurred.

And when you have, in Australia, one of the lowest rates of loss-of-life in the world, and in our aged care sector, one of the lowest rates of loss of life in the world.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

But.

GREG HUNT:

I think it's important to recognise that. But no country and no sector has emerged without real pain, and that's absolutely the case here. But what we see is a comparative difference.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Would you use those words though, that there is sector is performing exceptionally well? Would you- do you really describe it that way, Minister?

GREG HUNT:

I think our aged care workers have been heroic, and I think it's really important for you and I to acknowledge that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

No, but I mean, the management and response. Not the individuals working hard, that's not the question.

GREG HUNT:

Well, these are the same people that are working hard right across. And I think it is very important that we recognise that whilst there has been a tragedy and loss in a pandemic which has, by its very nature targeted the elderly, to achieve a 99 per cent vaccination rate.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

All right.

GREG HUNT:

To achieve a 91 per cent resident vaccination rate, to have one of the lowest rates of loss of life in the world, that's an immensely important set of outcomes, but always, we’re looking to improve.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Okay, so let’s go to some of the figures. Richard Colbeck told the inquiry there has been 471 deaths, but the ABC’s reporting 571. What is it?

GREG HUNT:

Well, the figure that I have as of yesterday, 777 since 1 July. And what we see is that- and those are the official Australian figures, but they're updated every day.

And I think the very important thing here.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

So Richard Colbeck got it wrong?

GREG HUNT:

No, I'm giving you the figures from 1 July, which is, what I have with me as the update as of yesterday, and that's from the last year. So the important thing is what is happening now.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Okay.

GREG HUNT:

And that is the provision of over 30 million units of PPE, of over four million rapid antigen tests since 1 January.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

But what about the last four weeks, Minister? What about the last four weeks?

GREG HUNT:

I think in the last four weeks, we've provided over 30 million units of PPE.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

I’m talking about the deaths. I'm talking about the deaths.

GREG HUNT:

Yes, no, I understand that. And we have said, clearly, unequivocally, an impact on lives lost during the course of the pandemic generally, and during the course of the Omicron wave.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Okay.

GREG HUNT:

And as you would know, what the Omicron wave has done around the world; it’s taken daily official cases from 500,000 to, at its peak, over 4 million. And in reality, that's likely closer to 10 million.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Okay. So let’s get it.

GREG HUNT:

And that's why we’ve responded with eight-and-a-half million masks.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

All right.

GREG HUNT:

Over 10 million pairs of gloves, 4.4 million gowns, 3.8 million [indistinct], over 30 million-

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

I want to- let’s- there’s a figure I'm looking for, Minister, if you don't- I don't mean to be rude, but I really want to get to this.

The Minister finally made an appearance yesterday before the COVID-19 inquiry, but he couldn't answer how many of the 471 people who died in residential care were, you know, from or with COVID, had received their booster shot.

So can you give us that information? From those who have died.

GREG HUNT:

Now, that’s a figure that comes from states to the National Incident Centre.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

And why don’t you have it?

GREG HUNT:

That data is collected by the states- well, that data is collected by the states through the coronial process or other processes, and at this stage, they have not yet provided all of that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Have you asked for it?

GREG HUNT:

What I can- pardon?

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Have you asked for it?

GREG HUNT:

Yes, of course we have. This is something.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

And why haven’t they provided it?

GREG HUNT:

At this stage it’s not something they’ve been in a position to provide, so I don’t want to be critical of the states.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Do we know why though? No, no, no. But we- do we know why? Because I think that’s key. It’s such a key question: how many of those who have died have actually been boosted? That’s the question, and we can’t answer it right now – why?

GREG HUNT:

Well, a very simple answer is – and I believe this was put yesterday in the Senate – is that at this stage, that material has not been provided by the states who collect that through their public health units; they provide that to the National Incident Centre.

One of the things we've done, we've provided the data throughout the course of the pandemic and I think this is a really important thing that we have focused on.

And as we work through this, it is a very important part of this public engagement and information. And so, protecting people, this is what our department at the Aged Care Quality and Safety Commission, the sector, is working on, not on a daily basis, on an hourly basis.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Yeah. But what we learned yesterday, though, through this COVID-19 Committee, is that 89 per cent of residents have received a second dose. Of that number, 66 per cent have received a booster. Doesn't that leave 80,000 vulnerable residents still without that imperative third dose?

GREG HUNT:

Well, I think the challenge here is that over 99 per cent of facilities have received booster visits, and the other ones are occurring in the coming days, where they have had outbreaks or reasons why they've not been able to accept the visit so far.

So if you have that 99 per cent of facilities that have received those boosters, my gentle message to families is, please, please, please, allow your residents, your families, your loved ones, to have that booster, to provide that consent. And that consent is absolutely critical.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Okay, but how many have had the shot? But how many have had the shot? We still don't know that figure, right?

GREG HUNT:

No, 116,000 was the latest figure that I had. Sorry, you hadn't asked me that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Yeah, but on the- there’s 80,000 vulnerable residents who don't have that third shot, right?

GREG HUNT:

Well, we are at- what we are seeing is that there are families or individuals who are making their own choice not to receive that. 99 per cent of facilities have had this visit, with the remaining ones in the coming days.

And so that opportunity has been there right across the sector. The critical thing, though, is for families and for loved ones to authorise and encourage the take-up of that booster. And whilst we will do everything we can to encourage, ultimately I need your help to encourage the families to allow their loved ones to take those boosters.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Okay.

GREG HUNT:

To accept them. And we'll keep going back, and keep going back and providing those opportunities. But as you know, we have a national rate which is one of the highest in the world, 95.7 per cent. It's 91 per cent for residents…

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Yeah, but just looking at the figures, Minister.

GREG HUNT:

But not all residents or their families have chosen to take it up.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

No, but we’ve got 190,000 residents. 116,000 have had the crucial shot. That means, what, we've got 74,000 that haven't.

GREG HUNT:

And that is a choice that has been made. Because if you visited 99 per cent of facilities- as you know, and I know, one of the.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

So you’re saying those 74,000 people have chosen not to have the booster, despite knowing the risks?

GREG HUNT:

It is a clear fact that all of these facilities, these 99 per cent of facilities, have been visited. And we have worked very hard to encourage, but we know that about 9 per cent of residents had not taken up a first dose, and 11 per cent have not taken up a second dose.

And with the boosters, it is a high take up, but it's not as high. And it's a percentage of that, obviously, approximately 90 per cent who have in turn taken it up.

So we'll continue to encourage, and I think you and I have a really important role.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

You need to perhaps do more than encourage- yeah, Minister, I mean, that’s a really huge number, and we can't even quantify those who didn't have that booster in terms of the deaths in this interview.

So we're in a genuine pickle, aren’t we?  I mean, that's a pretty serious situation you're in.

GREG HUNT:

Well, no. With great respect on two fronts, firstly, we have some of the most comprehensive data in the world, but through the course of Omicron, we know that the public health units have been gathering data, but there's more for them at the state level to provide.

And we’ll work with them and encourage them to do that. Secondly, in terms of the provision of opportunity, that's something we've been obsessed about and focused on. And completing this program six weeks earlier than planned and anticipated.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Do you think you should become more obsessed, given that huge number?

GREG HUNT:

Well, I think the critical thing here is recognising that with all these facilities having been visited, that there have been choices.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Okay.

GREG HUNT:

And so we have to work to encourage those families. Unless you're proposing mandatory- are you proposing mandatory vaccination for older residents?

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

No, I’m not proposing anything, but I am concerned about that number. Minister, I just want to get to.

GREG HUNT:

I do think it is an important question, Patricia. Is that something that you think should happen, that it's a mandatory vaccination for residents against the will of family…

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Minister, I want to move to another issue because my listeners are desperate for this question.

GREG HUNT:

No, but that is an important question. But are you proposing a mandatory vaccination?

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

ATAGI is recommending today- Minister, you and I have had these tangles before where you ask me questions. I'm moving to ATAGI now.

GREG HUNT:

Okay.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

ATAGI is recommending today the.

GREG HUNT:

I just think it is important for people to understand the alternative to voluntary, for our most vulnerable and elderly who, in some cases will make choices that we don’t want them to do.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Okay, alright. I’m extracting myself to another important question, particularly for parents, are ATAGI is recommending today the use of the Pfizer vaccine for all 16 and 17 year olds.

What about younger children? We've got a text from Jenny in Adelaide, who says, how about 12 to 17 year olds? When can they get their booster?

GREG HUNT:

Well, we've just had the approval for 16 to 17 year olds. And what we do is we work with the sponsors, with the vaccine manufacturers, to encourage them to complete their safety trials and then to submit at the earliest possible date.

At this stage, we don't have a complete submission in relation to that group. That's something which Pfizer is looking at around the world.

I've spoken with the CEO in Australia. I've written to the CEO in Australia, we’ll encourage them to bring that forward exactly as we have done with 16 to 17 year olds at the earliest possible opportunity, with five to 11 year olds for their first doses, where already we have one of the highest rates in the world.

And I have to say, in our older teens, we have a 91.3 per cent rate of take-up, and now we want to encourage them to come forward and to have the booster. There are 370,000 that are immediately eligible, that are within three months of their second dose. And there are 580,000 in that age group.

And so, as their time comes to be eligible, we really encourage them to do so. My own daughter has been hassling me and saying, dad, when’s it coming? When’s it coming?

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Yeah, same.

GREG HUNT:

And so, I'm hopeful that she'll make a booking. And there are bookings available across the system. It may not be a particular practice at any one time, but across the system, particularly in the state system, there are large booking availabilities.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Minister, the Government is distracted by the anonymous cabinet minister who called the Prime Minister a psycho and a fraud. Should the culprit do the honourable thing and fess up?

GREG HUNT:

Well firstly, I don't believe that there is any federal minister that's in this Cabinet that is involved.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

So you don't believe, you believe it's, what, been fabricated?

GREG HUNT:

I don't think there's a federal minister involved but there's no evidence. Nobody else seems to have seen this.

But my focus is, you say, we've been distracted. Actually, it's only questions in interviews.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Okay, alright, fair enough.

GREG HUNT:

But beyond that, I tell you, we're all just focusing on the plan for Australia, on- keeping people safe, on getting that vaccination rate even higher, which at 95.5 per cent is one of the highest.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

I have to ask for the record, was it you?

GREG HUNT:

No. that’s the third time I've been asked, and the third time I’ve said no.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Third time lucky for me. Thank you so much for joining us.

GREG HUNT:

No, thank you very much, Patricia. But I will say this to everybody. Thank you.

I know it's been a challenging summer with Omicron, but of all the countries in the world we've been- we've worked as a country to have one of these highest vaccination rates and lowest rates of loss of life, and one of the strongest economic recoveries, and that's just a tribute to the Australian people.

So we'll keep at it. And thank you and take care.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Thank you. Minister. Minister for Health and Aged Care, Greg Hunt, there.

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