LANCASHIRE, Claire 0:05
Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us again today. Big, warm welcome to you all. That don't know me, I'm Claire Lankershire and lead on engagement for Support at Home.
Please note that this session will be recorded and made available on the department's website. If you ask a question during the session, your name and question will be included in the recording which is made publicly visible.
Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which we're virtually meeting today. I'm based on the lands of the Wurundjeri people. I acknowledge and pay respect to their continuing culture and the contribution they make to the life of this city and this region. I also extend that acknowledgement and respect to other families with a connexion to this region
and other Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people who are here with us today.
Just in terms of housekeeping, again, for those who might be joining for their first session, today is a session focused on the operational matters to support the changes to personal care that are coming up for the 1st of October. This session isn't a forum to discuss other support at home matters.
And this is our 7th of these fortnightly sessions to work through the implementation considerations. Unlike a webinar that you might have seen in years gone by with the department, this is more of a two-way conversation between the department, key service delivery partners and providers and their software developers.
We tend to hear from us up front and then we hold questions until the end of the session. We've got our chat enabled as well, so that allows questions to be asked throughout the session. But we do invite people to raise their hand and we'll bring you up to screen to ask those questions as well. We find it's a really good way to engage.
Just in terms of a bit of a recap, we've been doing this as we've moved through the sessions, looking back at what we talked about last time as we head into the session. So for those that were able to join, you'll recall that last session took a bit of a different approach and we looked at scenarios to avoid. I think this was a really good way to break down these changes and make it really tangible about the scenarios that we're looking to really try and mitigate against as we work through the changes. If you didn't happen to catch the last session, that recording is available on the website and I encourage you to have a look.
As we worked through that session, we were asked if we could speak more on how to support diverse participants across a range of different cohorts. And I suppose as we reflected on this, all along we've been trying to make sure that you're preparing all of your participants. But that said, we do recognise that there are additional considerations for this change when it comes to diverse communities. And so that's what we're looking into today. But I suppose I can't emphasise enough that 45 minutes isn't a deep dive, it's not sufficient to adequately address their needs of individual cohorts and particular groups, but this is more a chance to prompt your thinking about your participant bases and share some of the insights from our relevant peak bodies.
So from there, I'll hand over to Penny and then she'll talk you through some of the guest presenters that we're having along for today's session. I hope you find it really enjoyable. You'll hear from me later on as we get back into the questions, but over to Penny.
WARD, Penelope 3:36
Thank you, Claire, and welcome everybody. And so we'll just keep moving through the slide deck so you can follow through on today. So as Claire suggests, as Claire mentioned, participants have different communication needs, circumstances, experience and support networks.
Today's session explores practical approaches providers can use to support understanding for all participants while recognising that some people might require additional support. Before we look at the practical actions providers can take, we've invited several organisations to share information about the communities they support, and the role they play in supporting older people, providers and communities. These organisations bring valuable experience and insights and can help support participant understanding and engagement. They will also outline how providers can connect with and seek support from their organisation. And we are pleased to welcome representatives today from Partners in Culturally Appropriate Care, Federation of Ethnic Communities Councils of Australia, Ethnic Communities Council of Victoria and National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Ageing and Aged Care Council as well. Today, we'll invite speakers from each of these organisations.
And they'll introduce their organisation and let you know more about who they support, the role of their organisation plays in supporting older people, providers and communities, and how the changes of the personal care contributions impact the communities in which they work with, and how providers can connect or seek support from their organisation.
And then I'll take you through the bulk of the presentation, which will provide you with some practical tips and guidance and also resources, as we always do when we finish off on our session.
So we might introduce our speakers and we'll start today with Nicholas Riddinghausen from the Ethnic Communities Council of Victoria. Welcome, Nicholas.
Nikolaus Rittinghausen 5:45
Thanks very much, Penelope. And I really appreciate the initiative from the department on this important activity to ensure that a communication on the changes are communicated in a culturally appropriate manner. That's fantastic. My name is Nicolas, obviously. I'm Senior Advisor at the Ethnic Communities Council of Victoria. We represent migrant and refugee communities here in Victoria. And that's our key focus area, supporting migrant refugee communities through different policy and project activities. And when I was, you know, reflecting on today, one thing that was really, I think, what really was clear to me, when we have any sort of resources developed for seniors from multicultural backgrounds, whether it's, for example, on this train that we want to communicate, it's really important that we take them on the journey and that these that these are, you know, adapted to their for people's preference, whatever, and it's different. People might have varying levels of literacy, language understanding.
There's also the interesting, actually, some smaller communities, they never have, you know, language resources. For example, the Japanese community, rarely they get a resource in their language. But I guess what I would say is that it's really important that we, you know, translations is 1 avenue, but also audiovisual material. And when we do, for example, I just want to give a quick example, do education sessions on elder abuse, we go through bicultural bilingual community educators or an interpreter to make sure that people really understand the message and these bicultural educators, they also have an understanding of the, you know, specific subject matter. So I just want to mention that we have a number of resources on our website, you know, they're not on the on the home care app on these strangers, but they're mainly around elder abuse and yeah, I just I just leave it there. Thanks very much.
WARD, Penelope 7:44
Thank you so much, Nicholas. And we will invite you as well as our other guests at our question and answer session at the end. And also we'll be providing links to our organisations who are joining us today, also as part of the meeting pack. And so now I'd like to ask Vandana Rathore from Partners in Culturally Appropriate Care to join us.
Thank you, Vandana. Thank you.
Vandana Rathore 8:08
Thank you for the opportunity to speak with everyone, Penelope. So my name is Vandana and I'm representing the Partners in Culturally Appropriate Care Alliance, or the PICAC programme. The programme is a national programme funded by the Department of Health, Disability and Ageing, and this is funded across each state and territory. So in each of your states and territories, you've got a PICAC funded organisation that can provide you support locally, and we do it as an alliance nationally as well, to mentor, to train your staff in that culturally appropriate practise.
So what we essentially do is we provide training, practical resources, mentoring through that sector development. So the idea is from our end to ensure that there is that knowledge, skills and confidence within the workforce so that culturally responsive care really becomes part of everyday practise and service quality and not just to be seen as an add-on. It needs to be embedded throughout an older person's care journey and specifically for this group because we're talking about communication. So we do have a lot of training and resources around that topic amongst other topics as well. So I would just quickly talk about the communication bit because as PICAC, we really focus and emphasise that language is obviously important when you're working with diverse older people, but communication is very broad and goes beyond language. So an older person's culture, migration, history, faith, relationships, all of these do play a part in communication. And these are some of the topics that we explore through our trainings and workshops.
And just to sum up in a nutshell, I would say that.
PICAC are positioned as your local provider support, where we offer those training, practical resources, information for you and your staff to be able to communicate effectively and confidently with older people from CALD backgrounds. And for our contact information, I'm going to leave some with Penelope. So we have a national contact at the Secretariat and we've got the local PICACs that you can get in touch with. Thank you.
WARD, Penelope 10:19
Thank you, Vandana, for explaining that to our audience, and we're looking forward to including those resources as part of our package today, and we really appreciate that. And now I'd like to invite Carlo Kukwawa from Federation of Ethnic Communities Council of Australia to join us. Welcome, Carlo.
Carlo Krikowa 10:42
Good morning, everyone. How are you? My name is Carlo Grecoa and I'm acting executive director for FECA at the moment, but I was the director of the Australian Multicultural Health Collaborative, which is a programme of FECA. So just a brief overview for those who don't know, FECA is a national peak body representing multicultural seniors and older people, as well as multicultural communities more broadly. In aged care, we bring the experiences of multicultural older people, families, carers, and community organisations into the national policy narrative. We consult with communities and providers, and I see one of our members here. Hi, Nicholas. How are you?
So we basically advise government and connect the aged care sector with FECA's National Network of Ethnic Communities Councils, which comprises more than 1500 organisations. Our work is predominantly guided by a Vision 2030. So it was a plan, a roadmap that was signed off by Minister Butler.
It's Vision 2030 Healthy Ageing and Multicultural Australia. And we developed that plan in consultation with 435 advocates, providers, researchers. And we also host a consumer group called MAIAC, so the Multicultural Advocates for Inclusive Aged Care, made-up of older people from diverse and cultural faith and geographic backgrounds. And so we leverage them a lot in terms of the policy work that we do at the national level.
WARD, Penelope 12:20
Thank you for sharing that, Carlo, and welcome to our session today. We really appreciate your contributions and again, we'll be providing links to your organisation and the support and more of an explanation of your organisation as part of this meeting pack.
Now, we'll move now to Kasara Hardy from the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Ageing and Aged Care Council. Welcome, Kasara. Thank you for joining us today.
Cassara Hardie 12:52
Thanks, Penelope. My name is Cassara. I'm the Director of Operations here representing NATSIAC and the team. NATSIAC is the national peak body for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander ageing and aged care. We represent the interests of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elders and older people, communities and the organisations that support them. Our role is broader than representing aged care providers alone. It's working across the ageing and aged care ecosystem to ensure that national policy, system design, funding and implementation reflects the rights, needs, lived experiences and the aspirations of our elders and older people. And a lot of our work is not limited to, but it focuses on elders and older people being first, First Nations leadership and self-determination.
looking at mapping out the dedicated First Nations aged care pathway, strong community controlled service delivery, culturally safe, trauma aware and healing informed care, equitable access and outcomes, shared decision making and accountability, and connecting the ageing and aged care system ecosystem as a whole. That's probably putting it simply. Yeah, thank you, Penelope.
WARD, Penelope 14:23
Thank you, Cassara, for joining us today and thank you to all of our guests who've come along to support this session. And as Claire mentioned today, this session is not intended to be a deep dive, but to raise awareness of the networks and support that is available to providers. It's certainly not the complete list.
We'll be going through some more support available to you throughout this session and also resources as well. Before we move into the main body of the session, I'll just hand over to Claire for just a quick reflection and then we'll move into the main body of the presentation.
LANCASHIRE, Claire 15:05
Thanks, Penny. Look, I think it's just such a great opportunity today having the peaks here. So really prompt our participants. I think we've got about 140 odd people online today. This is a great opportunity for you to ask some questions about how to support either your staff or your participants through these changes. So really encourage you to think about how you can get the most out of this session and
and thank you to those speakers to set the scene. So thanks a lot.
WARD, Penelope 15:37
Thanks, Claire. Okay, so we might move into the main part of today's session. So you can view the slides, listen along, make sure you write down your questions that you might have, or you can drop them into the Q&A function that's also on the screen as well.
And thank you, Prue, for sharing that slide. Again, this session is recorded and we will also provide this slide deck after this session so you can access the materials as well.
So what we'd like to go a little bit further into is about understanding participant needs. And participants may understand the personal care contribution change differently depending on their needs, circumstances and experiences. Communication preferences, including cultural context, trust, literacy, accessibility and digital confidence amongst things can all affect understanding of this change. Some participants may also like family members, carers, advocates or other trusted people to be involved. And providing information is only the first step. Participants need opportunities to ask questions and discuss what the change means for them. And so it may also take more than one conversation. And in our next slide, we'll look at some questions providers can consider when planning these conversations.
And so what you'll see on the screen very shortly is a series of questions and we've nestled them in major themes. It's not the complete list, but just some prompts leading up to 1 October and beyond that you can start to take, reflect on now and take back to your organisation.
These questions can help you think about what may affect a participant's understanding of the personal care contribution change. Consider the participant's culture, community and circumstances. How do they make decisions and who might they want involved? Think about their language and communication preferences.
preferences. Do they need an interpreter or other communication support? And consider whether the information is clear and easy to understand. And also think about digital access. Some participants may prefer information in a non-digital format. The key message here is to tailor communication to the individual participant rather than using the same approach for everybody. And once we've considered these factors, the next step is thinking about the practical actions providers can take before, during and after the conversation with participants about this change.
And so on the next screen, you'll see what providers can do, some suggestions for you. So before the conversation, identify the participant's preferred language or their communication needs and the people they might want involved. Arrange any translating, interpreting, easy read or other support in advance. And during the conversation, make sure you use plain language and clearly explain what is changing and what is not changing around the personal care contribution change. Make sure that you're checking understanding throughout the conversation and allow time for questions. And where possible, provide the information both verbally and in writing. And after the conversation, you may choose to record the participants needs and preferences so down the track, or with other conversations, staff can provide consistent support and knowing the individual's needs. And importantly, follow up when needed, particularly when the participant receives information in October and around the time that their first monthly statement arrives as well. They may have additional questions and that will need to be supported.
And providers can also draw on the knowledge and support of community sector and sector organisations, as we have discussed earlier and hopefully you saw that slide on the screen. If not, again, it will be made available in the meeting pack.
And so when it comes to working with the sector, we'll see if we can move through this deck. Providers don't need to support participants and do this alone. They don't need to do it alone. There's community and sector organisations that can provide insights into communication needs, cultural considerations, and potential barriers to participant understanding when it comes to the personal care contribution change. They can also help providers identify appropriate resources and strengthen connections with the communities they support. And you heard from our speakers a little bit earlier today. And so what you're hopefully seeing on the screen now is the list of organisations, networks and support that is available.
Providers can connect with organisations and networks that understand the needs and experiences of different communities. These organisations can provide insights, resources and support to help improve communication and participant understanding. Earlier in the session today, you heard from Partners in Culturally Appropriate Care, the Federation of Ethnic Communities Council of Australia, Ethnic Communities Council of Victoria, and the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Ageing and Aged Care Council. Providers can also access other practical communication support. Services available and other programmes include the National Sign Language Programme, the aged care translation service and TIS National. The department's local network can also provide local support and connections with representation in every state and territory. Again, links to these organisations are included in the resource section at the end of this presentation.
And I'd also like to now flag the actual resources that are available to providers now. We've discussed the organisations and services providers can draw on. We'll now look at the practical resources that providers can use and share with your participants. And we'll start with the stakeholder kit for providers.
For those who've been here for previous sessions, you'll remember that this is available if you're new to these sessions or new to this work, then you can scan the QR code on the screen and you can access the stakeholder kit for providers, as well as all the additional resources that providers can use to implement this change. And again, they're available at the end of this pack. And so what you're seeing on the screen here, I'd just like to flag, we also are just about to release a new Easy Read resource. So the stakeholder kit for providers you can use with your participants,
your families, the participant families, carers and supporters. The new Easy Read resource will support people who may benefit from clear language and a simplified format.
That will be included in the kit very shortly and made available. And providers should use these resources that best meet the participants communication and accessibility needs. And within this kit, you'll remember for those who've been on the sessions before, there is frequently asked questions, there's key messages, there's a templated
news story and also a templated e-mail that you can use for your organisation, apply your branding logo, etc., or tailor that artefact as well for your own purpose and your own context. And so we'd encourage you to use this kit. And again, we'll provide the link to this kit as part of today's session pack as well. And we won't forget that there's also resources that you can direct your participants, their families and carers to on the My Aged Care website as well. And so on the screen here, you'll see a QR code with a link to the personal care announcement. It's a news item which flags the changes to the Support at Home personal care. And so that has been made available since the announcement a few months ago. And this website page explains the contribution change and what it may mean for people receiving personal care under Support at Home.
Older people, families and carers and supporters can also access broader information on advocacy services, care finders and organisations that can help through the My Aged Care website as well. And so providers may wish to direct participants and their supporters to these resources and discuss any questions that they may have.
And finally, before we move to our Q&A session, on our next slide, you'll see some questions for your organisation. Today, we've discussed communication approaches, available supports and resources. So the questions that hopefully you'll be seeing on the screen very shortly, they're not just a checklist. There are actual prompts for you that you can think about how you'll support your participants to understand the personal care contribution change. And when you look at these questions on the screen, and I might go through them because I think the slide deck is lagging. So the first one is understanding your participants.
Questions are, do we know participant communication needs and preferences? Do we know who they would like involved in these conversations? Do we understand any personal circumstances or experiences that may affect communication? And importantly, preparing your workforce for these conversations.
Can staff identify and record communication needs? Will staff provide clear and consistent information? Do staff know where to find support, services and resources? And also, checking understanding. Can participants ask questions and access support? And how will you check understanding?
And also, how will you follow up with participants after 1 October when the personal care contribution change comes into effect?
So the key message here is that supporting understanding goes beyond just providing information. Success is where the participants understand what the change means for them and their particular circumstances. And now we'll hand back to Claire and we will facilitate a question and answer.
Please feel free to ask your questions. You can pop them into the chat. We have our speakers available today to support. And I might just pause there while you're thinking about what you'd like to put forward.
LANCASHIRE, Claire 26:56
Thanks, Penny. Yeah, welcome people to pop questions in the chat or raise your hand and we can bring you up to the screen as well.
We've got a quiet audience today. If we don't get questions, we're always keen to make sure that we're not drawing on your time too much, but Penny, we might get you to bring up the MAC website and we can show people just where those resources are. Again, we've found that those walkthroughs have been really helpful if we don't get any questions. I'm just looking again into the chat if there's anything there.
And I suppose there's an open invite too to any of our guests here today that spoke earlier. As you've looked through the materials, if there's anything you want to reflect for some of the cohorts that you've been working through, you're welcome to as well.
WARD, Penelope 28:06
Okay, I'll share my screen. So I spoke earlier about the news update, the personal care to be fully funded from under Support at Home from October. So that was one website that that's our court news announcement and within also the My Aged Care website, that is the terrific place to learn even more about the Support at Home program and also the support available to older people, their families, carers and supporters. And then also we have the personal care contribution change. This is our
primary page that we've been directing our participants and providers to, participants on this call, I should say, these calls, so that they can start to understand what's changing, what is not changing, and how providers can prepare for the change. In here, you'll see the details, plus also how to get ready for the change. You'll see here also our list of provider information sessions. We've also got our previous, a collection of our previous sessions that you can access all the slide decks. And only recently we've started recording these sessions. So these are terrific resources for people to delve into to learn a little bit more about the work that's been occurring to date. And also we have our personal care contribution provider readiness checklist. That is an HTML version of the web-based checklist that you can
navigate your way through and cross off all the to do items to prepare for this change. And I mentioned a little bit earlier the stakeholder kit for providers. This is a personal care contribution and change stakeholder kit for providers, it's available in both PDF and also Word format. And so Word format is really useful for you to be able to download and also tailor to your organisation's needs as well. If you haven't looked at this before, I might just give a quick look through this as a really valuable resource. And sorry if I'm making people a little bit dizzy. There's some key messages and we've got instructions on how to use this kit. We have the news article that I've mentioned earlier. We also have a templated e-mail for participants with our core messages around what's not what's changing, what's not changing, and what participants need to do and also frequently asked questions as well. And this is really useful for both your participants plus also your internal operational staff as well. And as I mentioned, there will also be the addition of the Easy Read that will go in likely tomorrow and that will be made available. So we're really pleased to announce that that will be published imminently. That's it for me, Claire.
LANCASHIRE, Claire 31:17
Thanks, Penny. I think it's great to get that walkthrough. While you were doing that, we've had a couple of questions pop up in the chat. So Glenda was asking about whether this enables more services through the funding. And I think it's a really good question because the answer is not necessarily. So the amount that you are approved and recommended in your budget remains the same. It's that these particular
Services no longer attract an individual contribution. But we understand that for some people, contributions has meant that they have foregone services that have been approved in their plan, particularly in diverse communities where this has been less well understood or received.
So likewise with Yvette's question here about hours per day, you're really looking back to what they've been approved and assessed for and then being able to draw down. So I think there's a few parts here to understand that attracting no individual contribution doesn't mean free. They still draw down on the budget.
but there is no contribution attached. So I think it's probably worth revisiting some of the FAQ material and key messages for when you're looking through those if you need a little bit more clarity on that.
And Tracy, we've just had some comments in there, Penny, about creating an easy read is a welcome change as well. Again, some changes can be still a bit difficult to understand.
Again, I was just wondered if from our panellists, were there any further reflections that you would like to make while you've still got, I think we've got about 120 odd on the call. Nicholas?
Nikolaus Rittinghausen 33:06
Yeah, thanks. I just want to mention, I think it's really important that any organisation, you know, servicing diverse seniors, that they have like a targeted approach, because sometimes if that's not the case, the message don't get to your, you know, to these clients or seniors. So I think I would really recommend people to consider
know, what they can do. And it's not just a translation, it's not the only solution. Just think about what you can do to reach, you know, your clients, how they can get the information, how you can reach them in the community, maybe at venues as well, where they sort of like to, you know, come together. But really think about it because it will not just happen automatically, I'm trying to say.
So, thanks.
LANCASHIRE, Claire 33:49
Thanks, that's a great reflection. Other panellists, was there anything that you would like to add?
Vandana Rathore 33:55
If I may, Claire, I think just adding on to what Nicholas said, communication is quite deep. And when we're talking about personal care, there's a lot of things to unpack there with family, carers and with the older person themselves. And if they're coming from a diverse background, it's not just about those translated materials. They're certainly useful.
Having qualified interpreters be a part of that process is very useful as well. But trying and understanding those finer nuances of how these decisions are being shaped as community, as a family, as an older person, because often people from diverse backgrounds would operate as collectives and there's a lot of cultural influence there that needs to be understood.
So if that's something that providers would just be curious about, instead of assuming just stay curious, be open, that's a really great starting point because in our experience, we've seen older people are having a significantly difficult time trying to navigate changes with the reform, as well as all the fee contribution and all those complex communication, because a lot of people can speak English well, but sometimes it's not about the conversational English, because our reform and all those service information comes with a lot of complex aged care jargon as well. So that also needs to be communicated effectively.
LANCASHIRE, Claire 35:14
Thanks, Vandana. Carlo, I think you also had some reflections.
Carlo Krikowa 35:19
Yeah, and just building on what Nicholas and Vandana has said. So as a multicultural health peak, we've done quite a few consultations over the last few months with older multicultural Australians, and definitely translated resources are important. But
I know our health care system is built on individual agency, you know, that human rights approach. It's up to the person to ask for what they want, but we're just not seeing that reflected in the older Australians that we engage with. So I would just, you know, echo the same sentiments that perhaps prompting people rather than expecting them to tell you what they may need will be really, really helpful. And a simple thing. So when asking someone who's coming onto the aged care system whether they're going to need any help with cooking, for example, you know, if you talk to an older male from a multicultural background, they'll say, oh, no, no, absolutely, don't need help with that because they rely on their wife or their kids to do that. So those are just the nuances that providers need to be aware of.
LANCASHIRE, Claire 36:34
Thanks, that's really great reflection. And Cassara, I wondered if you had any additional reflections after the session.
Cassara Hardie 36:44
Thank you everyone that has already explained very well and that is something that could be considered across all cultures and diverse groups and from a First Nations perspective for providers to and people having those conversations, it doesn't matter if it is a provider, a worker, a liaison officer within a hospital setting, every service should be considering the elder and older person first. And through that conversation and considering how they need to be communicated with,
ensuring that that trauma aware and healing informed approach is also considered. Those experiences of previous harm will be triggered if not communicated appropriately. And always ensuring that if you're getting a nod, for agreement from an older or older person, it doesn't mean that they understand. They could just be doing it just to be quiet and just move on with the process and not showing shame that they're not understanding what the changes are and how that's going to impact them in their the services that they receive.
And also just considering having more than one conversation is very important. As I said with the agreement, having a second conversation just to reiterate what those changes are and just getting an understanding or including family, community, a close friend, another resident if they're in an aged care facility, anything that will make them feel culturally safe is very important, and more than one conversation would be important to ensure that that is reiterated to them appropriately.
LANCASHIRE, Claire 38:45
It's such a great reflection, Cassara. I think we often reflect that Support at Home, we want to improve access, improve fairness, but it didn't necessarily make things simpler and I think all of us have needed multiple conversations to get across this work. So we should extend that to older people as well. These aren't necessarily things that you can pick up in one discussion. As we've been chatting, there's been a few more questions around the scope of the change. And I think we've answered it in the chat, but really encourage people to go back to the materials. And I think this is probably indicative of where we're at.
Sometimes when we start planning this work, it's quite a fair way out and it feels kind of theoretical, edging closer now to the 1st of October as we start to engage with this. So I encourage you to look back through those communication kits that Penn has been walking us through and those materials, because there's some really clear stepped out guidance there on what the scope of those changes are.
Look, a big thank you to all of our panellists. I know that your time is incredibly valuable. It's been great to bring you together to have this discussion. Again, by no means a deep dive today, but hopefully that's prompted some thinking for people across the group. We really are just drawing close to time again. So I'd like to thank everyone for their participation. These slides will be and the recording will be made available and then we'll have a think about our next session in a fortnight to continue to support you as you prepare for these changes. Stay well, everyone, and we'll see you in a fortnight.
WARD, Penelope 40:25
Thank you, everybody.