NATALIE BARR, HOST: Well, let's get more on social media. We're joined by Health Minister Mark Butler and Deputy Opposition Leader Jane Hume. Good morning to both of you.
Mark, the US firm that ran this case in America is now warning your government to act now against these tech companies. How are you cracking down on those companies?
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: The first thing I'd say, Nat, is we often count our blessings. We're not quite as litigious as our American friends. But this is a reminder that American courts over the years have driven some really important consumer protections; seatbelts, airbags, and now this really critical judgement, really important judgement. Alongside the social media ban we've put in place and other countries are starting to copy. I hope that this is some indication that the tide is finally turning against big tech and their dangerous experiment at the hands of our children. We're updating the rules to make sure that our social media ban is as effective as it can be. We know big tech is going to push back against it. We're making sure that the design features that featured in this American case are very clear in our rules. Those things that are deliberately designed to have young people constantly scrolling, constantly checking their social media because they fear they might miss out on stories are right at the heart of our world-leading legislative ban.
BARR: Yeah, are the tech companies getting fined yet? A child psychologist in the paper today that runs an internet addiction clinic for kids says 95 per cent of the kids he deals with have not been kicked off, or if they've been kicked off, they're getting right back on. So have you fined any of the tech companies yet?
BUTLER: I'm not quite sure where we're up to on fines, but I think your viewers remember that more than 4 million accounts were deactivated immediately after the ban took effect. And now there are reports of kids getting -
BARR: And it sounds like a lot were reactivated straight away.
BUTLER: We know that there are reports of kids getting around that, and our eSafety Commissioner is looking at that closely. We're expecting a report from her very soon. We always said this was going to be hard work, Nat, and I think the court judgement out of the US just reinforces how hard big tech is going to fight this and how hard it is to break addictive behaviour. Big tech really has addicted not just Australian children, children right across the world. I can tell you as Health Minister, the mental health impacts that that is having on our young people, young people around the world, are profound looking at the data. But your viewers will have seen this up close and personal with young people in their lives.
BARR: Yes. Jane, what's the answer here?
SENATOR JANE HUME: Well, we want to make sure that both the rules that are in place now are being enforced, but also that they're targeting the real drivers of harm. These tech companies shouldn't be allowed to simply hide behind black box algorithms. The court case that we saw in the US overnight demonstrates that there are companies out there that are intentionally profiting from the industrialisation of harm to our children.
Now, the laws that we have in place are a good start, but we need to make sure that they work. That's why we have been calling for transparency around the data that's been collected about whether this new social media ban is in fact working. We're hearing from parents that it's a good start, but it potentially doesn't go far enough because we know that children can get around it, and we know that social media companies have an incentive for them to get around it too.
BARR: Yeah, exactly. It's a good start. So we'll get that update, Mark, from the eSafety Commissioner next week and see where we're at with it. Thanks very much. See you next week.