TV interview with Minister Butler, Sunrise – 21 November 2025

NATALIE BARR. HOST: A new report has declared that Australia's current debate on migration should focus on temporary visas instead of permanent. The Australian Population Research Institute has found 1.2 million temporary visa holders, like international students and tourists, have now settled in Australia since the pandemic and recommends the Coalition, who are forming their migration policies right now, consider cutting those who have overstayed their visas. For more, we're joined by Health Minister Mark Butler and Liberal Senator Jane Hume. Good morning to you. So, Mark, that's a lot of people who seemingly have come in on tourist or student visas. Should we be letting them stay or should we be planning this a bit more?
 
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: We have been bringing the net migration numbers down. They're down about 40 per cent since the peak after COVID, when obviously there was a spike as people returned to Australia. We're looking to control our education intake as well, but balance that against what we need as an economy, as a society. Obviously, we need to balance our migrant numbers against pressure on infrastructure, but for Jane and for me, our two states earn more from education exports, from international education than any other export sector in the economy.
 
And as the Health and Aged Care and Disability Minister, I know how important this group is to staffing our aged care facilities, our disability services. We still don't have enough workers for those sectors, let alone sectors like construction, even though we've tripled the number of visas for construction trades. Still, we don't have enough workers in that industry. This is a difficult balance to strike, Nat. I know we're all working to do it. We know there's pressure on housing. We know there's pressure on infrastructure. But we've got really low unemployment, really strong jobs growth, and still can't fill so many of those really important jobs.
 
BARR: Yeah you're right, so are the students and the tourists going to work in the aged care sector?
 
BUTLER: If you go to an aged care facility or if you look at people who are being supported with a disability out in the community, so many of them are international students who are supporting their education with part-time work in those sectors. Talk to any operator there. But obviously we do need to manage our international student numbers -
 
BARR: And the tourists.
 
BUTLER: Recognising the importance to our economy. And tourists as well. They place less pressure on our housing stock obviously than people who stay longer term.
 
BARR: They come in, have a holiday, and then go work in the aged care sector, do they?
 
BUTLER: Not the tourists. I'm talking about students, which I think this report has highlighted as a big number. But look, tourism is a huge benefit to our economy. They don't put the same pressure on our rental stock, obviously, as people who are staying longer term as education visa holders as well. But look, this is a tricky balance for an economy like ours to strike.
 
BARR: Jane, where would you say we start on this? Because we know the Coalition is working on quite a few policies, this one amongst it.
 
SENATOR JANE HUME: Nat, I think we'd all agree that a well-managed migration policy has been the source of Australia's progress and prosperity for decades. But the key phrase there is well-managed. What we saw under Labor was a million new migrants over a two-year period. That's 70 per cent higher than in any two-year previously. That's a problem. It puts pressure on our infrastructure, on our healthcare systems and on our housing. So how do we manage that migration program to effectively deliver the skills that we need, as Mark has said, but also make sure that we don't have that unnecessary pressure on our infrastructure, on our housing, on our health care?
 
There has been a situation where we've seen those temporary visa holders overstay their visas, particularly students. About 10,000 or so last year claimed refugee status after their visa had expired. That puts them in a system where they then go through applications and appeals for many, many years. Now, we do need to make sure that we bring in the skills that we need. Fewer yoga teachers and goat farmers and more construction workers and doctors and engineers. Getting that balance right is profoundly important. That's what Sussan Ley is working on right now. We'll announce the principles of our immigration policy in the coming weeks.
 
In the meantime, though, I think that it's up to Labor to explain why it is that we have these pressures on our essential services because their migration program has been so poorly managed.
 
BARR: Well, look, it's very complicated because we need more people in those sectors though, Jane, and then, you know, we need to bring people overseas but we haven't got enough houses. What would your number be, Jane, by the way? Have you worked out what your number would be? I asked someone from the Libs earlier this week.
 
HUME: I'm not going to pre-empt my leader's announcements. In fact, she said she will announce the principles of a migration policy in coming weeks. But we do know that Labor has managed this poorly. We need to do better because, as I said at the beginning, a good, well-managed migration program is the source of progress and prosperity. We need to get this right. It hasn't been done well by Labor. The Coalition can do a better job.
 
BARR: Mark, do you think we are tracking down people who overstay their visas in these categories well enough?
 
BUTLER: It's a big number of people who come through our country, always has been. Yes, there was a spike over those two years Jane mentioned, but she might recall there was a big pandemic before that. Of course, there was an influx of people who had been asked to return home during the pandemic. There was an influx back into Australia that did spike the numbers, but they've come down, as I said, by 40 per cent since then. Yes, we always have to make sure that after people have enjoyed their time here as a temporary migrant doing education or working as a backpacker, providing essential skills in some of those sectors, particularly out in rural Australia, that they abide by the terms of their visa and return home. We can always do more there. They're big numbers and it's a big focus of our government.
 
BARR: Just quickly before we let you go, Jane, the outgoing New South Wales Liberal leader, Mark Speakman, has placed some blame on the federal election loss. He said there's a lot of brand damage with the Libs. Would you say that? Your brand is bad?
 
HUME: Look, there's never any one reason why a leader decides to step down or is challenged.
 
BARR: He’s named that as one, though.
 
HUME: Can I just say, though, Mark Speakman is such a decent man. He's a decent human being. That sounds like I'm, you know, that's faint praise. It's not. He's a really good fellow and we should be very grateful for the service that he has delivered to his state and to his country.
 
BARR: Do you agree with him that you've got brand damage, though?
 
HUME: Well, look, I think that he's had a rough time of it and I don't doubt that. You know, the Labor government in New South Wales is a very strong one and it makes it very hard for a coalition to get the airtime that it needs. I think that if Kellie Sloane is elected as the Coalition's leader today in New South Wales, that will herald a new era. We'll have opposition leaders that are female in New South Wales, Victoria and federally. That's an interesting time for a Coalition government, for a Coalition opposition.
 
BARR: How do you think, okay, well, it doesn't sound like you want to answer. So, how do you think- you're not exactly up there with Qantas, though, are you? The Libs, at the moment?
 
HUME: Well, we're not bumping anybody. You're more than welcome to take a seat on board the coalition's plane.
 
BARR: OK, might leave it there. Thank you, guys. See you next week.
 
BUTLER: The exciting thing about what's happening-
 
BARR: Yes, Mark? Last word, Mark?
 
BUTLER: The exciting thing about what's happening in New South Wales is finally we've got a breakfast TV presenter rising to the top of politics, Nat. So I think the question is -
 
BARR: Kellie Sloane, fellow journo.
 
BUTLER: When you're finished with Sunrise, are you going state or are you going federal?
 
BARR: Yeah, I'm standing right in the middle.
 
HUME: Come on board, Nat.
 
BARR: Right at the moment. Thank you very much. See you guys. See you next week.