TV interview with Minister Butler, Sunrise – 12 December 2025

NATALIE BARR, HOST: Independent MP Andrew Wilkie has vowed to stand up and fight politicians who he believes are rorting the system of family reunion perks. Mr Wilkie says if the Prime Minister doesn't crack down on the entitlement, then he will move a motion in Parliament to cut family travel to just a few visits a year and only to Canberra, instead of allowing trips for holidays or sporting events.
 
For more, we're joined by Health Minister Mark Butler and Liberal Senator Jane Hume. Good morning to both of you. Mark, we've had ministers, we've had the Prime Minister on this show all week discussing the saga. We know it is within the rules. We know it's being investigated. But if Mr Wilkie introduces laws to cap family reunion perks only to Canberra, will you support them?
 
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: I've seen the media report, Nat. I haven't seen the detail. But I think the important thing now is that particularly Anika Wells' claims have been referred to the independent parliamentary authority. That's obviously an opportunity for them to have a look at those claims but also to provide any broader advice and recommendations about these rules. I think these rules are important, these jobs place enormous pressure on our families, particularly on our partners who do so much of family work while we're away for as much as 150 or 200 days a year. But they've got to be reasonable and they've got to be used in a sensible way.
 
As the Prime Minister said yesterday, if there is advice and recommendations from this independent parliamentary authority that they come up with while they're considering Anika Wells' claims, I for one would welcome that. The Prime Minister said yesterday he would welcome that as well.
 
BARR: Have you seen what the public’s saying?
 
BUTLER: Sure, of course. I read the media. I’ve seen the public. I think they recognise that these jobs are tough on families but any rules about trying to keep families together from time to time of course have to be reasonable and they have to be used in a sensible way, and I think the independent parliamentary authority is exactly the right body to have a look at that. It was set up ten years ago to provide a level of independence.
 
BARR: They're not saying that, Mark. They're actually saying it stinks.
 
BUTLER: I hear that, Nat. I read the public opinion as much as you do and I think having the independent authority take the opportunity to look at these rules and provide advice about whether they do comply with what I think are those two key conditions, are they reasonable? Are they being used in a sensible way? It’s a really good timely thing.
 
BARR: They're saying you should know that. They're saying you guys are adults and you should know that a lot of this, we're not going to go through it all because everyone knows the figures, they're saying you guys should know it's not reasonable. And they also know, which Mark Riley reported the other night, there's a thing called the Parliamentary Business Resources Act of 2017, which sets the legal framework for this. It was voted for by politicians, you guys, eight years ago, and if politicians wanted to change this, you actually could. So, do you think that's a good idea?
 
BUTLER: I think we should wait for the independent authority to provide some advice about that. I think the establishment of that body was a good thing because it meant that we weren't setting our own rules and enforcing our own rules. Having that level of independence about it, I hope, would give the public some assurance that this is a system that's reflecting the public interest. We want MPs to be able to do these jobs in a way that doesn't see their families break, which is what we've so often seen in these jobs, but to be used in a reasonable and sensible way.
 
I, for one, will welcome the authority not just looking at the claims that Anika Wells has referred to them, those individual claims, but looking at whether the system is meeting those two standards, that it's a reasonable balance, the use of taxpayer funds with the need to reflect the unusual nature of these jobs, and they're being used in a sensible way. And as the Prime Minister said yesterday, we would welcome that advice and recommendations. If they then have to be enacted through legislation, I'm sure that's what we would do.
 
BARR: OK. Jane, do you think it's a good idea to wait for advice on this from an independent body, or do you think it's a good idea to listen to most Australians who say you could act now?
 
SENATOR JANE HUME: Nat, I think the first thing to assure your viewers is that there are 76 Senators, there's 151 members of the House of Representatives and the vast majority of them not just abide by the rules but respect them as well. And it's just as frustrating for those senators and members of Parliament that do the right thing when we hear of those that are taking advantage of the rules, essentially taking the piss. And it's really frustrating not just for the public but for those members of Parliament as well.
 
The second thing though that I think is really important here is that you can't hide behind the rules, and that's what the Prime Minister is doing. There has been some egregious behaviour here and it should be reconsidered. Now, family reunion is fundamentally important because we want people that have young families or have caring responsibilities to consider entering federal Parliament. If you're a young mother or a woman of childbearing age, you wouldn't consider federal Parliament if you lived in West Australia, for instance -
 
BARR: Yep, exactly.
 
HUME: If you didn't have these opportunities to reunite with your family. But it's about making sure that the rules are not just workable but flexible too and that people have respect for them. I actually think that there's room here for discretion. The Prime Minister is the biggest lawmaker in the land. He also can have discretion if people apply for special circumstances. So there are ways that we can adjust this. I'm not sure exactly what Andrew Wilkie is proposing, but I do think it is worth consideration because at the moment the Prime Minister is hiding from responsibility. He's running protection racket for some of his ministers that have been behaving pretty badly here, let's face it, and there should be some responsibility taken by the biggest lawmaker in the land.
 
BARR: Yeah, and the rules are set, but I tell you what people are saying to us, business class, flights, return, that doesn't cut it. An $1000 comcar waiting for 10 hours, that doesn't cut it. Order a black Uber, you know when you're coming and going. That's less than half that. I mean, it doesn't take, Blind Freddy can see that you could cut costs. And when people can't afford meat, it's just not adding up.
 
Anyway, we'll wait for the rules, I guess. Thank you very much. See you next week.