Press conference with Minister Butler, Adelaide – 26 September 2025

ANDREA MICHAELS, MINISTER FOR SMALL AND FAMILY BUSINESS, MINISTER FOR CONSUMER AND BUSINESS AFFAIRS: Thank you for being here this morning. We are here to give a South Australian and a Federal Government update on illicit tobacco here in in the country. I have with me our CBS Commissioner, Brett Humphrey. We also have our Health Minister, Mark Butler, Associate Minister Julian Hill, and our ITEC Commissioner, Amber Shuhyta. Thank you all for being there. Brett and I will speak first, and then we can hear from the Commonwealth on their update as well.
 
We are here because we know that illicit tobacco is a problem right around the country. Here in South Australia, we've been tackling it with everything that we've got. We've been running Operations Shutdown since 5 June, that is when my 28-day closure order powers came into effect. Since 5 June and since I've had those closure orders, I've issued 71 closure orders for 28 days, and we've taken $4.2 million of product off our streets. That's out of a total of $47 million since CBS took over on 1 July last year. We are determined to go really hard on this and we have been for the last few months, and we've seen those results with the 71 closure orders. Operation Shutdown is a testament to the hard work that CBS and SAPOL have been putting in, and we are working very closely with the Commonwealth Government, including Border Force and Health to tackle this really terrible, terrible issue here in the country.
 
We know how dangerous it is to have the presence of illicit tobacco stores in our communities. We are certainly taking every step to make sure we are shutting them down here in South Australia. I'm very pleased to be working very closely with the Commonwealth Government on that. I will now hand over to Brett to talk about the Operation Shutdown.
 
BRETT HUMPHERY, CONSUMER AND BUSINESS SERVICES COMMISSIONER: Thank you and good morning, everyone. The Consumer and Business Services Illicit Tobacco Taskforce has been hard at work on Operation Shutdown, which is aimed at closing down illicit tobacco stores in South Australia. As the Minister said, we've closed down 71 stores since 5 June and seized over $4.2 million worth of illicit product. We've been active right across both the metropolitan and regional areas, with crackdowns in regional areas including the Riverland, the Copper Coast, the Adelaide Hills and Murray Bridge. The Illicit Tobacco Taskforce works in cooperation with both state and federal agencies to identify stores suspected of selling the illicit tobacco so we can raid them and shut them down. CBS will continue these targeted raids across the state, and where appropriate we will apply to the Minister for closure orders to ensure we continue to disrupt this illicit tobacco trade.
 
I'd like to thank the public for the information that they provide regularly, and ask that people continue to report this information in relation to illicit tobacco stores via the CBS website. I'll now hand over to Assistant Minister Julian Hill.
 
JULIAN HILL, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR CITIZENSHIP, CUSTOMS AND MULTICULTURAL AFFAIRS: Thanks. I'll share a few words on behalf of the Commonwealth. Firstly, I want to congratulate South Australia and the Malinauskas Government on the results of Operation Shutdown to date. They are an exemplar of all the states and territories, and are certainly one of the leading jurisdictions in the fight against illicit tobacco. It's important, though, to note that whilst they have the toughest penalties, they have new police powers, they have new offences, they haven't just put the powers in place, they're actually now resourcing the Commissioner to do the work and to bust these illicit tobacco operations.
 
I'll share a few words though about the context from the Commonwealth's perspective. This is not a new fight, this is not a new issue. It was 10 years ago in 2015 that the Commonwealth Australian Border Force set up the Illicit Tobacco Taskforce, having seen the early signs of growth in the illicit tobacco market. It's also not a fight that's unique to Australia. We’re seeing the same factors driving attacks on countries right across the region.
 
Two factors in particular. Significant surplus in production of cheap tobacco in the source countries in Asia and South Asia, two bucks or less for a packet of cigarettes, combined with the involvement of transnational and serious organised crime, has seen these crime syndicates flood the borders of countries right across the region, and indeed into Africa and elsewhere in the world.
 
Whilst it's not new, Australia has led the world for a generation or more in the fight against tobacco and smoking rates, and we are not turning back. We will not let organised crime dictate Australia's health policy and condemn another generation to the scourge of nicotine addiction and tobacco illnesses and early death. There is no one cause of the rise in illicit tobacco, and there's no single solution that will work.
 
I want people to think about it in three ways. There's our work pre-border, and we are deepening our intelligence cooperation with international partners. We've had 255 intelligence alerts in partnership with the UAE just in the last 12 months, with Singapore, with the Royal Thai authorities, partners across Pacific. Then there's the work at border. The additional resources, which the Government has given the Australian Border Force, are now seeing results, record levels of seizures.
 
But then there's the important work with states and territories post the border. No country can win this fight at the border alone. We are increasing resources. We are employing new technologies and intelligence resources. But no country can win this fight at the border alone, because the volume of illegal tobacco and the cost of production, the volume is so big and the cost is so low, criminal syndicates will flood the border. And so the work with states and territories is critical. It's going to require a multi-pronged, multi-year, multi-jurisdiction fight.
 
But I want to deliver a very clear message to the organised crime syndicates, to organised criminals who are driving this illicit trade. The Commonwealth, the states and the territories are coming after you. You will not win this fight. We've seen record levels of seizures, we've seen new powers, and there's things that are now being put in place and done that you don't yet know about.
 
There's also a message to Australians. We need to understand what's going on here, and everyone has to play their part in the community and elsewhere. When people go down to their local tobacconist, to the corner store and think they're just getting a discount on a packet of cigarettes and cheap ciggies, it's not sort of two blokes out the back growing some tobacco and making a buck on the side.
 
This is now serious, violent, organised crime that are making billions of dollars of profits from the purchases of Australians of illegal cigarettes and tobacco and vapes. And they're reinvesting those profits in other crimes and anti-social activities. Human trafficking, sex trafficking, scam centres, cybercrime, drug smuggling and so on. So everyone needs to play their part.
 
I'll just finish by getting a couple of facts on the record about the work of the ABF and their law enforcement authorities. Last financial year, the ABF had a record level of seizure; 2.5 billion cigarettes seized at the border, more than 2,000 tonnes of tobacco in total. That's a 320 per cent rise on the level of seizure just four years ago. Some new data we just received in the last couple of months, early into this financial year, the level of seizures is up again, grown by another 15 per cent.
 
The work here in South Australia is exemplary, and I really praise the South Australian Government. But in Western Australia and New South Wales last month, we had the ABF, the AFP, AUSTRAC working with state authorities; 4 million cigarettes in one seizure, $24 million of proceeds of crime, $2 million of cash. Just two weeks ago in Queensland, a record haul with the ABF and Queensland authorities, more than 30 million cigarettes, 400,000 vapes, over 5.1 tonnes of tobacco.
 
I'll finish on this point, we are going to win this fight. Organised crime will not dictate our health policy, and we need every Australian to understand what's going on here and play their part. Thanks.
 
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: Thanks, Andrea, and thanks so much, Julian, for coming to South Australia and having a look first-hand at what South Australia is doing to lead the way on enforcement against illicit tobacco. As Julian said, this is really now the most significant threat that we have to the most important public health program Australia has lead for 50 years, and that is to stamp out the scourge of smoking. It is still the biggest cause of preventable death and disability in Australia, killing many, many thousands of Australians every single year. This flood of cheap illicit tobacco is punching a very serious hole in our ability to get down to the smoking levels that we have in our 2030 plan, and beyond that to stamp out smoking altogether.
 
I reiterate what Julian has said, this is not a victimless crime. Obviously, you are punching a hole in a very important public health program, but you are also handing over money to serious organised crime to bankroll the sorts of activities that Julian said. To those retailers out there who know they are doing the wrong thing, I want to just echo what Andrea and Julian have said. We will track you down, we will start to prosecute you in much greater numbers, confiscate the profits that you’re making from this illicit activity, and you will not get away with what you are doing.
 
AMBER SHUHYTA, ILLICIT TOBACCO AND E-CIGARETTE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. What I’d like people to understand here, the core of the issue is that we don’t just care about the dangers that smoking and vaping pose to our country, but also about the dangerous threat of violent criminals profiting off the supply of cheap smokes and flavoured vapes. I want people to understand that shutting down these sales isn’t a money-making venture of government to try and get people to buy regulated products. It’s about trying to stamp out the money-making ventures of serious and organised crime syndicates. The choices that you’re making, buying cheaper smokes or flavoured vapes, is funding the gamut of violent crime and trafficking that we’re seeing, and we don’t want to destroy the fabric of our country.
 
I want to reiterate three things that have been said here today. This is a global issue. There's no one single solution. It's not simple, and it really requires good partnerships with states and territories. I want to assure everybody that there is significant effort underway across all jurisdictions, that there are a lot of people working in a lot of different agencies across the multi-prongs of the supply and demand chain. We have people in law enforcement, people in health, people in commercial business regulation. We have people at the border. We have people internationally, and I want to thank all of the individuals that work in those jobs that are working really hard on this multi-layered, complex issue.
 
I'd also like to finish just by saying this will take time. This requires coordinated multi-agency effort. That's what my job is here to do, to centralise a cohesive, unified national effort. We bring together the powers of all of the agencies working on this so we can really make a dent in this problem. Thanks.
 
JOURNALIST: Do you accept that tobacco excise increases may have pushed people into the black market?
 
BUTLER: I think the point to make is the one that the Assistant Minister made, which is that illicit tobacco is seen in every single tobacco market in the world, no matter what the legal price of cigarettes is. If you look at the United States for example, which has much cheaper legal cigarettes because of a lower rate of taxation, they also have a very significant challenge with black market cigarettes as well.
 
I also make the point that the very big increases in excise happened last decade during the life of the Abbott, then Turnbull, then Morrison Governments where excise increased by well over 200 per cent. Compare that to the relatively modest increases that have happened over the last three to four years. The explosion in illicit tobacco was, as the Assistant Minister said, a product of significant oversupply in the world, dumping of this product on every single country around the world by these gangs that are controlling this traffic, and essentially the stranglehold that some criminal gangs here in Australia have got over the market to bankroll their other criminal activities.
 
JOURNALIST: Chris Minns said this month when he tried to raise taxes on tobacco with your government, he was met with suggestions the excess is not contributing to a black market explosion. He suggested you weren't listening to him. Should you have listened better to state premiers on this issue?
 
BUTLER: I always listen to state premiers and to state health ministers. We've had two significant discussions as a group of health ministers about this, and that discussion has focused very much on the importance of enforcement. The nation leading work that South Australia is undertaking here which is now being picked up increasingly around the country, including by the New South Wales Government, that has seen the results that Andrea and her government have been able to achieve here with the work of the Commissioner and his staff and police officers.
 
Yes, we've had a discussion about this. One we recognise from a public health perspective that the price of cigarettes is probably the most important tool in the toolbox to drive down smoking rates in our community. But of course, we've got to get some control over an illicit market that is seeking to circumvent all of the legal protections that consumers have in place here.
 
I also make the point, these cigarettes that are being sold by criminal gangs from a massively oversupplied illegal market overseas, as Julian said, are producing cigarettes for $2 a packet. What is the reduction in excise that the people proposing that reduction, who are essentially people from the tobacco industry and the retail sector that supports that industry, what are they proposing is the rate at which illicit tobacco becomes essentially uncompetitive with a legal product? There is just no rate of reduction you could put in place to outprice these cheap cigarettes that are flooding in from overseas, organised by criminal gangs.
 
We will do the right thing from a public health perspective. We're not going to have our public health policies dictated by organised crime or by Big Tobacco. The job here now is to enforce the good laws we have in place against the bad people who are flouting them.
 
JOURNALIST: Do you really think consumers care where their money's going? I mean, they're getting the product. Do you think that making them aware of the crimes they're bankrolling will make them think twice?
 
BUTLER: I'm not focused on consumers. I'm focused on the people who are selling these things. We're focused on the gangs who are controlling this market. We're focused on the retailers who might think that this is somehow a victimless crime that they're profiting from. I say again to them it is not. It is bankrolling very serious criminal activity, often violent activity, that has very serious victims involved. We've made a point from the time we started to update our tobacco control laws a few years ago and take serious action against vaping, we were not targeting consumers. We are targeting the people who control this market. That's the exemplary leadership you've seen here in South Australia under the Malinauskas Government. We'd like to see that work replicated across the country.
 
JOURNALIST: You mentioned it earlier, but just to put it super simple, how would you categorise the threat of the tobacco black market in Australia?
 
BUTLER: I think from a public health perspective, it is now the biggest threat to our world-leading tobacco control programs. We've been undertaking this work as a country for 50 years, and in so many ways we've led the world, and that's why we have some of the lowest rates of smoking in the developed world right now. Whether it was taking on advertising, taking on sports sponsorship, leading the world with our plain packaging reforms that we initiated when we were last in government this is all very hard work. Firstly, you're dealing with a highly, highly addictive product that's very hard for people to kick.
 
Secondly, you're dealing with a very rich industry, the Big Tobacco industry, that's determined to use every tactic they can to get around these laws. But this here, the sorts of products you're seeing in front of me, flooding our market, flooding other developed markets all around the world are right now, I think, the biggest threat. We have to go that last mile and get from where we are now, a bit under 10 per cent of adults daily smoking, down to zero, which is where we want to be.
 
JOURNALIST: Can I ask Minister Michaels, the release says we've got the toughest penalties in the country, fines of up to $6.6 million for those caught selling or possessing. Have any of those fines been dished out yet?
 
MICHAELS: Yes, so in terms of on-the-spot fines, we've issued more than $400,000 worth of fines. We have several prosecutions going through the courts at the moment. We have, on Tuesday next week, a sentencing for one of our earlier ones. Certainly, we are taking this on through the courts as well.
 
JOURNALIST: But there hasn't been a fine anywhere near that $6.6 million?
 
MICHAELS: We haven't seen a judgement yet from the court. We are going through that process.
 
JOURNALIST: The Assistant Minister mentioned earlier about the crimes associated with these syndicates outside of, obviously, illegal tobacco trading things like human trafficking. Do you happen to know specifically the syndicates that are operating in South Australia at the moment or other crimes they're associated with?
 
MICHAELS: I don't have that information. It would be a good question for SAPOL.
 
JOURNALIST: Are you aware that any landlords have been fined yet?
 
MICHAELS: At the moment, since we got these powers on the 5 June, when I shut down one of those stores, I also write to the landlord and make them aware that that is what is happening on their premises. The next step is to start using those powers against the landlords as well. They ought to know, and they will face those prosecutions as well.
 
JOURNALIST: I was just going to ask Minister Butler again. So, you're saying it's the biggest threat to public health. Are you saying that the black market is increasing the rate of smoking, or are these just being sold to existing smokers?
 
BUTLER: Still, really the explosion of illicit tobacco over the last couple of years, as these gangs have really got a toehold in this market, is still relatively recent. We're still very pleased with where our adult smoking rate is, it's under 10 per cent. We've got a target to get it to 5 per cent by the end of the decade. But as I've said and as recognised right around the world and has been in research piece after research piece, price is a really important tool in the toolbox to support people kicking the habit. It's not the only one, but it is a really important tool.
 
I am concerned that the widespread availability of illegal cheap cigarettes is really taking away that significant tool that we have to help Australians, the two million or so Australians, who still smoke to kick that habit.
 
JOURNALIST: Can I just ask you about the PBS? How significantly will Trump's new tariff hurt Australia?
 
BUTLER: We'll still be working through the latest announcement from the President this morning, Australian time. Obviously, we've been aware of the Administration's intention to take action against pharmaceutical imports into America, and we've been engaging with them and making the case why we should continue with the tariff-free trade that has characterised US-Australian relations for more than 20 years.
 
We buy more pharmaceutical products from the US by quite a distance than they buy from us. It is not in the American consumer's interest to impose a higher price on the exports from Australia to America, particularly given the degree to which their exporters to Australia benefit from that free trade as well.
 
But we're examining the latest announcement. We're talking to companies who might be impacted by it because, obviously, there are some qualifications the President mentioned this morning about whether or not a company has some capital investment plans in train in America, and a number of companies from Australia do have that capital investment underway.
 
But I make this point. None of these latest announcements from the US Administration make a jot of difference to our determination to protect the PBS. The PBS has served Australians so incredibly well in terms of providing them with affordable access to the world's best medicines. We are determined to do everything to protect that PBS.
 
JOURNALIST: Most of our exports are blood-related. Is it clear whether they'll be included and, if not, will there be any separate charge related to those?
 
BUTLER: We're obviously very keen to understand that, because probably I think over two-thirds of our exports are blood and plasma products. We're very keen to understand the scope of the announcement this morning from the US Administration. And also, to the extent that it is captured,- the degree to which the big company exporting those products right now will be captured by the exemption the President announced this morning. That is, that they have some capital investment projects underway in the United States, which on the face of the President's announcement, would exempt them from these additional tariffs.
 
But look, we're still working to understand the implications of this announcement, which is still only a few hours old. We've been making the case, since it first became clear that the US was going to take some action in this area, about the benefits of continued free trade in pharmaceuticals between our countries.
 
JOURNALIST: Are you concerned that the tariff is retaliation because of big pharma concerns to the PBS?
 
BUTLER: No. I think it's pretty clear that the core objective of the US Administration is to lower drug prices in their own country, and they're using tariffs as a tool to try and achieve that objective, which is a matter between the US Administration and big pharma companies whether they're American or non-American companies. I guess our job now is to protect the interests of Australians, most importantly Australian patients who have benefited for almost 80 years from the PBS, a great Labor legacy from the 1940’s. And also, to do what we can to support Australian companies who might be hit by what we regard as unfair, unjustified tariffs after 20 years of free trade.
 
JOURNALIST: And can I just ask you about Bedford? How much is Bedford in debt?
 
BUTLER: I'm not in a position to outline all of that. As you know, to his great credit, the Premier, I think in this building, announced some weeks ago some support to McGrathNicol to undertake an independent review to look at restructuring this really important South Australian icon of 80 years.
 
I've been provided in the last few days with that report, that restructuring report. I've had some correspondence from the Premier a couple of days ago as well that I'm going through and seeking advice on. But it is clear that the more we look into the details of Bedford's financial position right now, the deeper the financial difficulty is that they've got themselves into.
 
I think we all need to work through this very carefully, with the main focus being on supporting the hundreds and hundreds of South Australians who are supported by Bedford, particularly their jobs. Many of them supported employment jobs. And making sure to the extent there is a restructure of this organisation, which looks pretty inevitable to me, that those people are going to be supported in some other way.
 
JOURNALIST: Just on to vaccines, reportedly, childhood vaccination rates are plummeting, becoming the lowest in the decade. A recent study took this down to a variety of reasons, one being an erosion of trust with the science tech and providers. How do you think misinformation from the US around immunisation has impacted us locally?
 
BUTLER: We've had, I think, about 13 consecutive quarters of a drop in our childhood immunisation rates. They're still, by world standards, very high, but they are starting to drop below herd immunity levels, particularly for very serious conditions like measles. I know there's been some discussion about the MMR, the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine over the last few days coming out of the US.
 
I just want to stress again to Australia's parents, this is a really critical way to keep your baby safe. These vaccines, the MMR vaccines, at 12 months and 18 months of age, are free of charge, they're incredibly well supported by evidence. And they will protect your little one from conditions like measles that have the potential to be very, very serious for babies, and even fatal.
 
I'm very concerned that there are parts of the country where childhood immunisation rates, including for measles, are not only below that 95 per cent level but, in some areas are below 80 per cent or even lower. As measles cases get into a community like that, that means those babies are at serious risk. And this year we've seen a larger number of measles cases in Australia than any time since the pandemic. Largely, these are cases being brought back from overseas travellers. But if they get into a community where there are low rates of immunisation for measles, that poses a very serious risk to non-immunised babies.
 
I want to stress again, this is happening all around the world. The World Health Organization has reported that childhood immunisation rates are dropping in at least 100 countries around the world. This is a question governments right across the world are grappling with. We're thinking about it very carefully. We're talking with immunisation experts about ways in which we can reinforce that message to parents, improve access and affordability for parents to be able to get their kids immunised and keep them safe in that way.
 
JOURNALIST: Speaking of measles, there's also outbreaks in Queensland. With Brisbane playing a grand final in Victoria there's concern the event could be a super spreader. What's your public health message on this?
 
BUTLER: Yes, there are a larger number of cases of measles than we've seen since 2019. It's still, I think, around 120 or so this year. I wouldn't put it in the sort of category of big respiratory illness numbers that might run to tens and tens of thousands. I've not seen any advice about any concern about the grand final, that's the first I've heard about that. None of the authorities have provided me with any advice that would lead me to be concerned about the grand final. I do just want to reinforce, though, in those areas where there are measles cases spreading, babies who are not immunised are at particular risk.
 
JOURNALIST: Just back on the NDIS, there's a series of disability employment providers all in financial crisis in South Australia alone. The sector says it's been warning about this for years, it's fallen on deaf ears. What's your response to that?
 
BUTLER: First of all, I want to stress, I've said this a couple of times before, I see Bedford as quite a unique situation. There is pressure on funding in some areas of the NDIS and in disability employment. We've been looking at that very closely, I have been, and the NDIS Minister Jenny McAllister, since we took office a few months ago. There are some structural adjustment funds in place for providers of disability employment to deal with some of the changes that have been underway over the last few years. We'll continue to engage them because this is a really critically important part of ensuring that people living with disability are able to live fulfilling, contributing lives in this country.
 
JOURNALIST: We're doing a story today about spinal cord stimulators. Is the TGA review to their safety complete yet?
 
BUTLER: I'd have to check, finally, on that. But my recollection is that post-market review from the TGA was completed last year. It looked at a number of pieces of evidence and the adverse events that had been reported to the TGA, particularly for implantable stimulators. My advice from time, as I recall it, was just to reiterate the importance of health professionals acquainting themselves with that post-market review if they're considering the use of a stimulator with a patient. There being a very, very serious conversation between the patient and the clinician or the health professional to weigh up the costs and benefits of that.
 
JOURNALIST: We're also doing a story with a woman with breast cancer who's calling for Prosigna test, to be put on the PBS to see if women will respond to chemo before they start it. Why won't you subsidise that test?
 
BUTLER: Again, I haven't looked at this for a while. My recollection is that test, it’s not one that would go under the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme or the PBS, which is for medicines, but it might go on to the MBS and be funded through Medicare. That would only happen after the Medical Services Advisory Committee, a group of experts that look at medical services, recommended for it to go on to the MBS.
 
My recollection is the last time they considered that particular test was some years ago and it was not supported by the experts to be added to the MBS. It's always open to the sponsor or the company that owns that particular test to put that back up to the Medical Services Advisory Committee. That would be considered on its merits at that time. I'm not aware if they've done that in recent years.
 
JOURNALIST: Just one for Minister Michaels, if that's okay? I might just jump back to tobacco, if that's all right? There was an incident of arson today and it was next door to a tobacco store. Do you know at all about any links, maybe not to Shutdown, but Operation Eclipse, and if there's any links there?
 
MICHAELS: No, I do know that SAPOL are investigating that. I have no further update on the investigation, so we'll wait and see what SAPOL finds.
 
JOURNALIST: The Prime Minister has arrived in London where he'll meet his British counterpart where AUKUS will be discussed. How important is Australia's relationship with the UK?
 
BUTLER: It's always been a really important relationship, obviously, and a warm relationship, frankly, no matter the political colour of the government in the UK or the government here in Australia. I know Prime Minister Starmer and our Prime Minister have a warm personal relationship and they'll have a great opportunity, after the hustle and the bustle of the UN General Assembly if you like, to sit down and have a deep one-on-one conversation about areas of mutual interest. Obviously, I say this as a South Australian in particular, obviously AUKUS is a critically important part of those ongoing and engagement that we have with our British counterparts.
 
JOURNALIST: Just one final one on the NDIS sorry. Providers say that low NDIS pricing leaves them wearing costs and putting them in financial stress. What are you doing to address this problem?
 
BUTLER: We've started to introduce independent pricing into the NDIS progressively over the last couple of years. This year we saw the most sophisticated analysis of pricing ever undertaken in the NDIS. It analysed 10 million or more data points, comparing prices paid under the NDIS to prices paid, for example, in Medicare or in Aged Care and Veterans Care, in various of the state compensation schemes like transport accident commission schemes and the like.
 
I'm very confident that the pricing determination we saw from the agency, the National Disability Insurance Agency, this year was better informed than any before it. But, we have before us a recommendation to consider even more independent pricing into the future, at the time we've had in hospitals now for well over a decade and we introduced in aged care only several years ago.
 
I'm very keen to explore that potential to make sure, obviously, that providers are getting paid what they should be paid to provide the important services they provide. But also, to make sure that taxpayers are getting value for money here. This is a very, very expensive scheme, changing the lives of people with disability for the better no doubt. But taxpayers have an expectation that we get value for money from this scheme.