PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Well David Gillespie is the Regional Health Minister, and he joined me a short time ago.
Minister, welcome.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Good afternoon, PK.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Should New South Wales consider the benefits of a state-wide circuit breaker lockdown, given cases are spreading to the regions?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, I don't think they should because what they are doing is controlling it. Every day that you don't see an exponential rise, it's actually a good outcome. We have had a limited lockdown principle in New South Wales, and you've seen Orange go into a temporary lockdown and come out. You've seen, you know, regional Victoria have a targeted short lockdown and come out. The consequences to people with a scattergun approach really are so disadvantageous to people in those regions that it's hard to support based on the evidence.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, I have to challenge you on what you say is a good outcome. For the many people right now in these lockdowns, I don't think they look at these rolling case numbers after seven weeks of being in lockdown as a good outcome.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, compared to how it could have been, I'm not saying that- I'm saying in the regional areas that have had the short, sharp lockdown, it's made sure there hasn't been any transmission when random people come into an unaffected area. It has been effective in stopping that catching and going like wildfire. But in a pandemic, if we hadn't been doing all the things that we've been doing in both Victoria and in New South Wales and in Queensland, you would see a far more exponential rise in cases.
So, look, it is controlling it. We haven't beaten it yet. It will be a combination of, as we've done and said so many times, is the vaccination program. So that we can get the vast majority of the population with an immune memory so that they don't get sick and they don't transmit as much as they do if they actually get the disease.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Are you comfortable with the prospect of the New South Wales Premier easing restrictions in some places once the state vaccinates 6 million people instead of getting COVID zero or close to COVID zero?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
You mean in suppressing the virus before they allow the lockdown? I think that the two will intersect.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] Well, no. Of relying more on vaccination, which clearly they're doing now.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Yeah. Well, look, it is a multipronged strategy at the moment until we get to big enough population numbers. Six million out of the 7 or so million in New South Wales is a pretty high percentage, but it would be good to have the other states at equal footing because, as you know, people do travel even though lockdowns happen. They ignore the orders, like the really disappointing behaviour by a Sydneysider who went up and just didn't think anything would come of it, and now there's four local government areas in the north-east of the state that are having to go through this lockdown to make sure that they can control the spread as we ramp up vaccination.
And it is ramping up in regional Australia, I might add. I spoke about it in the Parliament yesterday. It's amazing. There's 3.7 million doses in regional Australia already. We've got GPs, pharmacies coming on board. We've got the Flying Doctor. We've got the Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Services. It's a full court press, and with new Moderna supplies coming in it will ramp up even higher.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, but the approach that New South Wales is taking does seem to me that they don't think they can get to COVID zero. Do you think they can?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, to put the genie totally back in the bottle at zero cases, that is very ambitious. Maybe with the initial wave, when it wasn't so infectious, we could get that place again. But it's going to have to- it will, I think, bubble along with the current measures until we get more and more people vaccinated. It's re- you know, this is a one-in-100-year event, PK, and it's hard to be absolutely black and white about projections, but what I can say is it appears to be controlling it. And as the- every week that goes by that it hasn't doubled or tripled, in a way, is a small victory because it means we've got a chance for the vaccine to work.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You say it's a small victory, but for the people who are in lockdown, following the rules, seeing the numbers bubbling along, I don't think they see it as a victory.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Yeah, I know. Look, it is really disheartening. I understand. I've got people in my electorate whose businesses vanished overnight when Sydney locked down. All the tourism industries on the North Coast. I've got people down the bottom of my electorate whose businesses can't operate at all, around Maitland and Dungog and all those Upper Hunter regions. It's real, it's tangible, but the alternative is far worse. People discount the severity of this because we have managed it so well. We are, in a way, victims of our own success, because we haven't seen the carnage that you've seen in other nations. We know from what's happened in many countries overseas that this is a very infectious disease, but the mortality and the hospitalisations in the UK aren't coming like they came in the first wave because building up a herd immune knowledge of how to fight a virus means that people don't get as sick. It means that if you are still excreting the virus, you don't excrete as much. So it reduces the risk on many fronts, but it's critical to get above that 70, 80 per cent.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay. You mentioned tourism and tourism even in your own electorate. I know Warren Entsch, who was joined- joined us on the program yesterday, he's lobbying for a tourism package. He says that tourism has been smashed by what we're seeing. Are you internally calling for that too?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well, look, we are supporting the New South Wales Government, at least in my electorate. And the same deals apply for other states. Once they go past that week lockdown and there are declared areas, of which Cairns is one of them, there will be support. And it is across the nation, but it's not JobKeeper. It's direct to the individuals through Centrelink, and in the case of New South Wales it's to businesses through Service New South Wales. But we are supporting businesses as well-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] Yeah. So that's the existing support, which everyone gets if they're out of work, according to the rules. I'm talking about additional support for tourism.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, we always look at the situation, and it is a rolling assessment process. As you can see, we've been quite flexible before. If the situation dramatically changes, obviously the Treasurer and the Finance Ministers and the whole Government looks at everything as it evolves, but at the moment we look like we've got a good setting that's very helpful for people who've taken it.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] But it won't dramatically shift. What we know now is that we're going to be stuck in this position because of the stubborn numbers in New South Wales. It looks to be months and months of this.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I think it is difficult. I- you can't agree that it isn't. But the settings that we've in place are- they're not a panacea. The best thing is for us to get people being able to travel and work knowing that we've got a health system that's not going to be overwhelmed, that we've got treatments in place for those that are unfortunate to need to be in hospital, and that we've got a broad community vaccination rollout that is being delivered to as many people who are happy to have the jab. Regional Australia is rolling their sleeves up, and they're keen to get it. And as I said, the ramp up and distribution is really increasing with new supplies and new centres like community pharmacies.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Are you comfortable that your colleague George Christiansen has used Parliament to spread misinformation about COVID-19?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I had to respectfully disagree with George about the mask data. Look, there's so much information out there in the internet. Depends when you read an analysis and who is. I can see where he's frustrated. A lot of people are frustrated. I acknowledge that. But masks do help control the spread of it. The fomites(*) that you unconsciously spit out when you're talking or when you're in a crowded train or a bus can transmit it. It can actually come in through your eyes, PK, and down your tear ducts into your airways. We know that. There's all the science in the world that's showing that. But it's not going to cure and prevent 100 per cent, but it certainly adds to help control the spread, which is what we're trying to do while we ramp up vaccination.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You are the Regional Health Minister, and you're also in his own party room. Have you spoken to him?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Oh, yeah. I caught up-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] And what have you said to him? That he's wrong?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Along those lines, exactly what I told you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So you told him your information about masks is…
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well, it depends what you read, but we know that masks have an effect in reducing spread particularly in crowded places. That's why the recommendations are there.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Shouldn't he be rebuked more strongly, punished to show that these views that are not based on science are denounced by your government?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, he has been counselled and advised. And look, in the-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] What does they look like? Is that just flip in conversation, say hey, you're wrong? Or what does it look like? What's that counsel look like?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, look, other parties don't cope with dissent. In the National Party, we are able to cope with dissent internally. We manage it, and we move on.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
How can you move on though when he's spreading misinformation?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I never limit a person's right to speak. As I said, I-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] As my guest yesterday Matt Kean said, a New South Wales Minister, you're free to have your opinions but not your own facts.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
That's not a bad line, actually. That is quite a good comment. I might use that myself. But look, like I said, we're-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] So- okay, well, you can borrow it from him, but it wasn't his originally, of course. But he shouldn't be spreading misinformation, right? So what consequences do you think you should face?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, look, he's faced the consequences. He's faced the-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] What are they?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well, he's faced the- his own party giving leave for the Opposition to criticise him. That is quite a real significant event in parliamentary life that the Government will allow leave to suspend standing order so that the Leader of the Opposition can speak freely. And I think that is a more powerful- inside this building for people that understand Parliamentary processes, that is an exceptional rebuke.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Maybe that's the issue, though, that it's only inside the building where that rebuke matters, that actually a more powerful rebuke perhaps might be needed. What do you make of that?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, look, I think we have moved on. He understands what his colleagues and his peers think, and
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] Has he promised you he won't do it again?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I'm never going to stop George from speaking. If you can't say your piece, what's the point of being here? But I must admit-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] But what's the point if your facts are wrong? That's my point. It's not just his opinions about whether he likes the colour pink. This is- which I'm sure we all love. It's not about that. These are about facts, and he's not sticking to the facts, right?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well, it's his opinion. He was giving his opinion, and it's been pointed out by many people that the wearing of masks is part of the requirement for us to keep control of this very infectious virus. But the main thing you got to remember, PK, is this is a one-in-100-year. A lot of people are under a lot of stress. You get information overwhelming people that don't understand all the details. And I have read the transcript of what he said, and as I said, we've already had that conversation about masks and how it helps control things. What I'm focusing on PK, is making sure that we get the logistics of this rollout as finely tuned as possible. That was the first thing, when I was made responsible for regional health, is to get the speed up of the rollout that we have seen now. Myself and other Nationals members brought forward the involvement of community pharmacies, we've encouraged efficient logistical transfers, we've asked for the speed up of the registration process and that will deliver in spades because as I said in Parliament yesterday, there's 5000 GPs who have signed up. They have been the biggest delivery mode but they are under strain and having another avenue to deliver many more millions of vaccines will mean that vaccination rollout, I think, will be- we will beat the targets that are projected. Unless there is some untoward, unseen event, I think we will get there by Christmas.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Dr Gillespie, Let's just end on this. You believe in science, right?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Of course, PK.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Laughs]
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Well David Gillespie is the Regional Health Minister, and he joined me a short time ago.
Minister, welcome.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Good afternoon, PK.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Should New South Wales consider the benefits of a state-wide circuit breaker lockdown, given cases are spreading to the regions?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, I don't think they should because what they are doing is controlling it. Every day that you don't see an exponential rise, it's actually a good outcome. We have had a limited lockdown principle in New South Wales, and you've seen Orange go into a temporary lockdown and come out. You've seen, you know, regional Victoria have a targeted short lockdown and come out. The consequences to people with a scattergun approach really are so disadvantageous to people in those regions that it's hard to support based on the evidence.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, I have to challenge you on what you say is a good outcome. For the many people right now in these lockdowns, I don't think they look at these rolling case numbers after seven weeks of being in lockdown as a good outcome.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, compared to how it could have been, I'm not saying that- I'm saying in the regional areas that have had the short, sharp lockdown, it's made sure there hasn't been any transmission when random people come into an unaffected area. It has been effective in stopping that catching and going like wildfire. But in a pandemic, if we hadn't been doing all the things that we've been doing in both Victoria and in New South Wales and in Queensland, you would see a far more exponential rise in cases.
So, look, it is controlling it. We haven't beaten it yet. It will be a combination of, as we've done and said so many times, is the vaccination program. So that we can get the vast majority of the population with an immune memory so that they don't get sick and they don't transmit as much as they do if they actually get the disease.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Are you comfortable with the prospect of the New South Wales Premier easing restrictions in some places once the state vaccinates 6 million people instead of getting COVID zero or close to COVID zero?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
You mean in suppressing the virus before they allow the lockdown? I think that the two will intersect.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] Well, no. Of relying more on vaccination, which clearly they're doing now.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Yeah. Well, look, it is a multipronged strategy at the moment until we get to big enough population numbers. Six million out of the 7 or so million in New South Wales is a pretty high percentage, but it would be good to have the other states at equal footing because, as you know, people do travel even though lockdowns happen. They ignore the orders, like the really disappointing behaviour by a Sydneysider who went up and just didn't think anything would come of it, and now there's four local government areas in the north-east of the state that are having to go through this lockdown to make sure that they can control the spread as we ramp up vaccination.
And it is ramping up in regional Australia, I might add. I spoke about it in the Parliament yesterday. It's amazing. There's 3.7 million doses in regional Australia already. We've got GPs, pharmacies coming on board. We've got the Flying Doctor. We've got the Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Services. It's a full court press, and with new Moderna supplies coming in it will ramp up even higher.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, but the approach that New South Wales is taking does seem to me that they don't think they can get to COVID zero. Do you think they can?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, to put the genie totally back in the bottle at zero cases, that is very ambitious. Maybe with the initial wave, when it wasn't so infectious, we could get that place again. But it's going to have to- it will, I think, bubble along with the current measures until we get more and more people vaccinated. It's re- you know, this is a one-in-100-year event, PK, and it's hard to be absolutely black and white about projections, but what I can say is it appears to be controlling it. And as the- every week that goes by that it hasn't doubled or tripled, in a way, is a small victory because it means we've got a chance for the vaccine to work.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You say it's a small victory, but for the people who are in lockdown, following the rules, seeing the numbers bubbling along, I don't think they see it as a victory.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Yeah, I know. Look, it is really disheartening. I understand. I've got people in my electorate whose businesses vanished overnight when Sydney locked down. All the tourism industries on the North Coast. I've got people down the bottom of my electorate whose businesses can't operate at all, around Maitland and Dungog and all those Upper Hunter regions. It's real, it's tangible, but the alternative is far worse. People discount the severity of this because we have managed it so well. We are, in a way, victims of our own success, because we haven't seen the carnage that you've seen in other nations. We know from what's happened in many countries overseas that this is a very infectious disease, but the mortality and the hospitalisations in the UK aren't coming like they came in the first wave because building up a herd immune knowledge of how to fight a virus means that people don't get as sick. It means that if you are still excreting the virus, you don't excrete as much. So it reduces the risk on many fronts, but it's critical to get above that 70, 80 per cent.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay. You mentioned tourism and tourism even in your own electorate. I know Warren Entsch, who was joined- joined us on the program yesterday, he's lobbying for a tourism package. He says that tourism has been smashed by what we're seeing. Are you internally calling for that too?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well, look, we are supporting the New South Wales Government, at least in my electorate. And the same deals apply for other states. Once they go past that week lockdown and there are declared areas, of which Cairns is one of them, there will be support. And it is across the nation, but it's not JobKeeper. It's direct to the individuals through Centrelink, and in the case of New South Wales it's to businesses through Service New South Wales. But we are supporting businesses as well-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] Yeah. So that's the existing support, which everyone gets if they're out of work, according to the rules. I'm talking about additional support for tourism.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, we always look at the situation, and it is a rolling assessment process. As you can see, we've been quite flexible before. If the situation dramatically changes, obviously the Treasurer and the Finance Ministers and the whole Government looks at everything as it evolves, but at the moment we look like we've got a good setting that's very helpful for people who've taken it.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] But it won't dramatically shift. What we know now is that we're going to be stuck in this position because of the stubborn numbers in New South Wales. It looks to be months and months of this.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I think it is difficult. I- you can't agree that it isn't. But the settings that we've in place are- they're not a panacea. The best thing is for us to get people being able to travel and work knowing that we've got a health system that's not going to be overwhelmed, that we've got treatments in place for those that are unfortunate to need to be in hospital, and that we've got a broad community vaccination rollout that is being delivered to as many people who are happy to have the jab. Regional Australia is rolling their sleeves up, and they're keen to get it. And as I said, the ramp up and distribution is really increasing with new supplies and new centres like community pharmacies.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Are you comfortable that your colleague George Christiansen has used Parliament to spread misinformation about COVID-19?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I had to respectfully disagree with George about the mask data. Look, there's so much information out there in the internet. Depends when you read an analysis and who is. I can see where he's frustrated. A lot of people are frustrated. I acknowledge that. But masks do help control the spread of it. The fomites(*) that you unconsciously spit out when you're talking or when you're in a crowded train or a bus can transmit it. It can actually come in through your eyes, PK, and down your tear ducts into your airways. We know that. There's all the science in the world that's showing that. But it's not going to cure and prevent 100 per cent, but it certainly adds to help control the spread, which is what we're trying to do while we ramp up vaccination.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You are the Regional Health Minister, and you're also in his own party room. Have you spoken to him?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Oh, yeah. I caught up-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] And what have you said to him? That he's wrong?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Along those lines, exactly what I told you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So you told him your information about masks is…
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well, it depends what you read, but we know that masks have an effect in reducing spread particularly in crowded places. That's why the recommendations are there.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Shouldn't he be rebuked more strongly, punished to show that these views that are not based on science are denounced by your government?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, he has been counselled and advised. And look, in the-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] What does they look like? Is that just flip in conversation, say hey, you're wrong? Or what does it look like? What's that counsel look like?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, look, other parties don't cope with dissent. In the National Party, we are able to cope with dissent internally. We manage it, and we move on.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
How can you move on though when he's spreading misinformation?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I never limit a person's right to speak. As I said, I-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] As my guest yesterday Matt Kean said, a New South Wales Minister, you're free to have your opinions but not your own facts.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
That's not a bad line, actually. That is quite a good comment. I might use that myself. But look, like I said, we're-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] So- okay, well, you can borrow it from him, but it wasn't his originally, of course. But he shouldn't be spreading misinformation, right? So what consequences do you think you should face?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, look, he's faced the consequences. He's faced the-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] What are they?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well, he's faced the- his own party giving leave for the Opposition to criticise him. That is quite a real significant event in parliamentary life that the Government will allow leave to suspend standing order so that the Leader of the Opposition can speak freely. And I think that is a more powerful- inside this building for people that understand Parliamentary processes, that is an exceptional rebuke.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Maybe that's the issue, though, that it's only inside the building where that rebuke matters, that actually a more powerful rebuke perhaps might be needed. What do you make of that?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, look, I think we have moved on. He understands what his colleagues and his peers think, and-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] Has he promised you he won't do it again?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I'm never going to stop George from speaking. If you can't say your piece, what's the point of being here? But I must admit-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] But what's the point if your facts are wrong? That's my point. It's not just his opinions about whether he likes the colour pink. This is- which I'm sure we all love. It's not about that. These are about facts, and he's not sticking to the facts, right?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well, it's his opinion. He was giving his opinion, and it's been pointed out by many people that the wearing of masks is part of the requirement for us to keep control of this very infectious virus. But the main thing you got to remember, PK, is this is a one-in-100-year. A lot of people are under a lot of stress. You get information overwhelming people that don't understand all the details. And I have read the transcript of what he said, and as I said, we've already had that conversation about masks and how it helps control things. What I'm focusing on PK, is making sure that we get the logistics of this rollout as finely tuned as possible. That was the first thing, when I was made responsible for regional health, is to get the speed up of the rollout that we have seen now. Myself and other Nationals members brought forward the involvement of community pharmacies, we've encouraged efficient logistical transfers, we've asked for the speed up of the registration process and that will deliver in spades because as I said in Parliament yesterday, there's 5000 GPs who have signed up. They have been the biggest delivery mode but they are under strain and having another avenue to deliver many more millions of vaccines will mean that vaccination rollout, I think, will be- we will beat the targets that are projected. Unless there is some untoward, unseen event, I think we will get there by Christmas.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Dr Gillespie, Let's just end on this. You believe in science, right?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Of course, PK.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Laughs] I knew that would be the answer. And you also believe in taking the scientific advice on COVID, right?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Yes.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Do you also believe in taking the scientific advice from the IPCC on climate change?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I had a look at that report that you're referring to and look, we all, every nation in the world has to address the evidence that there is a change in the atmosphere. Australia has been doing it for the last 15, 16 years. Many of the other countries around the world have kicked it down the road. Even the Opposition kicked it down the road.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] Don't we have to lead by example based on…
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
[Talks over] But we are.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
…what the science is telling us? Because you agree that- do you agree that the science is telling us that climate change will be catastrophic and is human induced?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well I've read the report and they won't say it's 100 per cent. They talk about probabilities and models.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Overwhelmingly, human induced right?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I hope you've read the whole thing. I've read the first…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] Have you? Every single page?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Not every page but I've been looking at it earlier this morning before I agreed to come onto your show. It is an interesting report but it says a lot about probabilities and the current state of play and what likelihood can happen with models. But the facts are that Australia has met and beat our Kyoto targets. We're on track and are ahead to meet our Paris targets. We have got money running out in our current budget and a road map and using technology. And in the National Party, we want to use technology…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] Okay. Alright.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
…that will get a better outcome.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Darren Chester was an ABC News before and he said wouldn't it be wonderful if for the first time in 13 years we could get some bipartisanship with the Labor Party to just stop the climate wars, do you agree?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Yeah. Look I have set up a bipartisan Parliamentary Friends of Nuclear Industries so we can talk about one of the greatest technologies that could reduce our footprint-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] But with respect, nuclear can't do this in the short-term and you know it.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
No. So let's talk realistically about what we can do beyond the nuclear project which you clearly support. Do you think that you need to work in a bipartisan way to end the climate was?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, everyone is sick to death of the climate wars but we have been delivering. And as I said, our national greenhouse and energy reporting system, it's covered by legislation, it reports four times a year. We have beaten our Kyoto targets. We will meet and beat our Paris targets. Half the countries that brow beat us in international forums have actually increased their output in the last periods. We are actually a world leader in the deployment of renewable energy. We want to use technology. We're supporting hydrogen, we want to utilise carbon capture and storage. We've got 20 power stations left. If you bolted on carbon capture and storage, that would improve it. If you use modern technology, rather than the old technology we've got in a lot of our power stations, we'd reduce it by 43 per cent. And if we embraced all those other things that I- building efficiencies, soil, carbon, all those sort of technologies, we would continue-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] Can I just finally- we're running out of time, sorry to interrupt you. But 2050 net zero emissions, do you think that you should be moving to that?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
We're not going to sign a blank cheque and still-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Not a blank cheque. Make the plan. Don't say until we see the plan, you make the plan. Should you be making the plan to get to net zero emissions by 2050?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well the first thing you've got to do is meet your targets by 2030. As I said, many countries and many parties take the easy road out and kick it down the road, you know, another almost 30 years.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You can only- you're only responsible in this country.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No. We are a world leader in so many areas and we're not getting the credit we deserve.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But you can do the work here. 2050 net zero emissions. Do you think it's a feasible idea?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Show us the detail and then we'll make a sensible-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] I can't show you the detail, you're the Government.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, well look we haven't seen the detail.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But aren't you meant to be developing it, with respect?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
We have got a road map. We are going to use technology, PK, and that's what we're committed to. I don't want to see my dairy producers shut down, I don't want to see my beef producers shut down. I want the timber industry to continue capturing carbon and turning it into manager and building houses. We don't want the cities to grind to a halt because we've got no power to run them. We want our iron and aluminium smelters and all those industrial parts of the modern world, we need cheap, reliable, affordable energy. We've offshored a lot of our manufacturing and in COVID we found out that we've been caught short. We've got to have an industrial base in this country and we've got to have affordable 24/7 reliable cheap energy and we'll use technology to achieve that, rather than blanket, aspirational 2050 commitments that are 30 years away.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay. Minister, we're out of time. Thanks for joining me.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Thanks PK.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And that was the Minister for Regional Health, David Gillespie.
I knew that would be the answer. And you also believe in taking the scientific advice on COVID, right?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Yes.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Do you also believe in taking the scientific advice from the IPCC on climate change?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I had a look at that report that you're referring to and look, we all, every nation in the world has to address the evidence that there is a change in the atmosphere. Australia has been doing it for the last 15, 16 years. Many of the other countries around the world have kicked it down the road. Even the Opposition kicked it down the road.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] Don't we have to lead by example based on…
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
[Talks over] But we are.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
…what the science is telling us? Because you agree that- do you agree that the science is telling us that climate change will be catastrophic and is human induced?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well I've read the report and they won't say it's 100 per cent. They talk about probabilities and models.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Overwhelmingly, human induced right?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, I hope you've read the whole thing. I've read the first…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Interrupts] Have you? Every single page?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Not every page but I've been looking at it earlier this morning before I agreed to come onto your show. It is an interesting report but it says a lot about probabilities and the current state of play and what likelihood can happen with models. But the facts are that Australia has met and beat our Kyoto targets. We're on track and are ahead to meet our Paris targets. We have got money running out in our current budget and a road map and using technology. And in the National Party, we want to use technology…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] Okay. Alright.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
…that will get a better outcome.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Darren Chester was an ABC News before and he said wouldn't it be wonderful if for the first time in 13 years we could get some bipartisanship with the Labor Party to just stop the climate wars, do you agree?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Yeah. Look I have set up a bipartisan Parliamentary Friends of Nuclear Industries so we can talk about one of the greatest technologies that could reduce our footprint-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] But with respect, nuclear can't do this in the short-term and you know it.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
No. So let's talk realistically about what we can do beyond the nuclear project which you clearly support. Do you think that you need to work in a bipartisan way to end the climate was?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Look, everyone is sick to death of the climate wars but we have been delivering. And as I said, our national greenhouse and energy reporting system, it's covered by legislation, it reports four times a year. We have beaten our Kyoto targets. We will meet and beat our Paris targets. Half the countries that brow beat us in international forums have actually increased their output in the last periods. We are actually a world leader in the deployment of renewable energy. We want to use technology. We're supporting hydrogen, we want to utilise carbon capture and storage. We've got 20 power stations left. If you bolted on carbon capture and storage, that would improve it. If you use modern technology, rather than the old technology we've got in a lot of our power stations, we'd reduce it by 43 per cent. And if we embraced all those other things that I- building efficiencies, soil, carbon, all those sort of technologies, we would continue-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] Can I just finally- we're running out of time, sorry to interrupt you. But 2050 net zero emissions, do you think that you should be moving to that?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
We're not going to sign a blank cheque and still-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Not a blank cheque. Make the plan. Don't say until we see the plan, you make the plan. Should you be making the plan to get to net zero emissions by 2050?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Well the first thing you've got to do is meet your targets by 2030. As I said, many countries and many parties take the easy road out and kick it down the road, you know, another almost 30 years.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You can only- you're only responsible in this country.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No. We are a world leader in so many areas and we're not getting the credit we deserve.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But you can do the work here. 2050 net zero emissions. Do you think it's a feasible idea?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Show us the detail and then we'll make a sensible-
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[Talks over] I can't show you the detail, you're the Government.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
No, well look we haven't seen the detail.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But aren't you meant to be developing it, with respect?
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
We have got a road map. We are going to use technology, PK, and that's what we're committed to. I don't want to see my dairy producers shut down, I don't want to see my beef producers shut down. I want the timber industry to continue capturing carbon and turning it into manager and building houses. We don't want the cities to grind to a halt because we've got no power to run them. We want our iron and aluminium smelters and all those industrial parts of the modern world, we need cheap, reliable, affordable energy. We've offshored a lot of our manufacturing and in COVID we found out that we've been caught short. We've got to have an industrial base in this country and we've got to have affordable 24/7 reliable cheap energy and we'll use technology to achieve that, rather than blanket, aspirational 2050 commitments that are 30 years away.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay. Minister, we're out of time. Thanks for joining me.
MINISTER GILLESPIE:
Thanks PK.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And that was the Minister for Regional Health, David Gillespie.