MURRAY JONES, HOST: My special guest, the Minister for Aged Care and Seniors – good morning to Sam Rae. How are you, Sam?
SAM RAE, MINISTER FOR AGED CARE AND SENIORS: I’m great, Murray. Thank you for having me on this morning.
HOST: Nice to have you in this part of the world, and we’ve really turned it on for you. Some great weather at the moment.
RAE: It has been very nice to be in this part of the world. I’ve been knocking around the last couple of days with one of my favourite people in the Australian Parliament, Matt Smith, the great member for Leichhardt. We’ve had a great deal of fun. We’ve done a whistle-stop tour of various aged care providers all across Cairns, Murray. It’s been a very rewarding experience.
HOST: It always is with Matty, but he just makes me feel super short.
RAE: He’s a big man with tiny, tiny dogs, as you and I have discussed.
HOST: That certainly is the case. Let’s talk about - and I was saying this just yesterday that mirroring some of the issues that we’ve had with the NDIS, sadly some rogue operators, and of course costing the Government but more particularly the consumers at the end of the day. So it's interesting to see a similar approach in relation to actually bringing some certainty and bringing in some of not just these rogue operators, but I guess the focus on the consumers. The Support at Home program, some rather significant changes, particularly when it comes to providing some certainty, Sam.
RAE: Murray, as you and I have discussed before, we're undergoing a generational reform of Australia's aged care system. We need a system that will meet the needs of older Australians, that will provide them with dignity and the high-quality care that they all deserve.
Now, last November we brought into place the new Aged Care Act, and we also brought into place the Support at Home system, which was the expanded version of our home care program. We have seen some interesting things happen over that period, and we've been monitoring them very, very closely.
Now, we've got a very robust commission in place, an Aged Care Quality and Safety Commission, and they, as part of their remit, keep an eye on the prices that are occurring across the market. And they haven't found any examples of systemic price rorting, and we have seen some of those issues in the NDIS and you're right to raise that, because we're looking at that system very closely. Nevertheless, we have seen some what we would call inappropriate pricing behaviour, some small elements of the sector who are doing the wrong thing. And so the package that we've announced is all about cracking down hard on that inappropriate pricing, making sure that we've got the best possible protections in place for older people to get the care they need without getting ripped off along the way.
HOST: And look, that pricing structure when it comes to rises, because we've got a very volatile economic climate right across the world, it impacts here as well. So I should imagine that certainty for seniors to know when they're budgeting what they can afford, that's one of the key things that you're looking for, to actually putting in some things in place to give older people some certainty as to exactly how much things are going to cost.
RAE: Spot on, Murray. We want older people to be able to predict what the costs of their home care budgets are going to look like. We also want to be in a position, and this is why I've empowered the Commission, to order providers who engage in inappropriate pricing behaviour to refund inappropriate prices to the budgets of those older people who are affected. We want people to be able to predict what their budgets are going to look like, plan their care accordingly. But on the rare instance where providers do the wrong thing, we're empowering the Commission to crack down and order those refunds or take regulatory action if it's necessary.
HOST: Yeah, and that's really important to make it a simple system too for people when it comes to unreasonable pricing, which we are seeing in the system to a certain degree as well.
Let's talk about getting the price settings right too. Deferring the implementation of formal price caps until we've got a greater confidence in the stability of the market is something that I've just read from one of the releases here. I know that's something that's maybe been a little bit controversial in some areas just in the last couple of days. But I guess when it comes to having some certainty, which you want to provide- and I believe there's actually a framework there too, the National Summary of Support at Home Prices. But when it comes to actually the longer term, actually having a system when it comes to deferring some of those price issues, I understand.
RAE: Murray, you raised the NDIS, and I think you did it aptly. When we look at the NDIS, one of the things that we've seen where price caps have been introduced is that doesn't effectively act as a cap, it acts as a price setting mechanism. And indeed, all of the providers who are providing that service below the cap raise their prices right up to the cap. What we want to avoid here is a situation where we open the doors for providers to all come right up to where that cap should be and that becomes effectively the market set price when those services could potentially be delivered below that cap.
The other thing that we've got is a pretty volatile economic climate. We've got wars on the other side of the world which are affecting prices, including labour prices within the care economy. We want to monitor these prices. We want to make sure that when we put these caps in place, if we do put the caps in place, that they are the right caps. But likewise, if we can get the market to provide better prices to older people using these important regulatory mechanisms, including the power of the Commission. We’re also working closely with the sector, and I give credit to the sector in this regard, Murray. We're going to be asking them to do a couple of things like limit the number of price rises that they put in place each year. Again, this is about providing predictability and certainty for older people when they're planning their care.
HOST: It is quite interesting to check out some of the specifics here. The timing of the changing is obviously important and also reflecting what's happened with some working groups there, with the Older Persons Advocacy Network as one example, plus a whole range – COTA as well. So obviously you've had fairly solid consultation with the industry when it comes to making sure there's the fairness, the balance, and of course, the independence for older people. And, of course, that's certainly and I think they're the things that I guess we've really focused on this morning.
RAE: Spot on, Murray. We've got fantastic consumer groups. You've named a couple of them, OPAN, COTA. We'll continue to work really closely with the consumers and their representatives to make sure that we get the best outcomes for older people. That's what this reform process is all about. It's why we've invested an additional $3.7 billion through this budget last week to ensure that we get better outcomes in residential accommodation arrangements, we get better outcomes under Support at Home. Of course, we've made sure that people won't be out of pocket when they're paying for showering and other hygiene services. These are important steps. We're listening to older people, we're listening to their families and their carers, and we're working in a methodical way through these challenges to get the very best outcomes for older people all across the community.
HOST: And specifically on that, I can see a removal of out-of-pocket costs for showering, dressing and continence service as well.
RAE: That's right, Murray. This is all about the categories that different care types are put into. The Government covers the cost, 100 per cent, the full cost of all clinical care. But previously, showering, dressing and continence assistance was placed under independence. It was considered a type of care that was about focusing on someone's independence as opposed to clinical care. However, what we’re hearing from older people was that the co-contributions that were associated with that were becoming an inhibitor to them getting the care that they need. I’ve said right from the beginning, Murray, I'll listen to older people, I'll listen to their families, and when we need to make changes to get better outcomes, that's what we'll do. This is a billion-dollar change, and it's going to be a much better outcome for older people.
HOST: Not the most glamorous sometimes, but it's a reality and really important for older people at the end of the day.
RAE: Murray, it's about dignity for older people. It's about making sure they get the care that they need, keeping them out of hospital. And I've got to say, a big shout-out to workers. The people who provide this care are extraordinary human beings. They are highly skilled and they are compassionate, dignified people. It's extraordinary work, and we need more of them.
HOST: Let's basically throw something at you, and speaking about some of the workers, but this is coming left of centre. Immigration, obviously it's a big issue in this country. How important is the immigration intake to actually supporting people at home and the aged care sector full stop?
RAE: Well, Murray, firstly, let me say I think there is a space for a respectful, informed discussion across the community about what’s sustainable immigration looks like. When it comes to aged care, we rely extremely heavily on skilled migration in order to make sure that we can provide the care to older people that we need to provide. We draw on people from all across the world who bring their skill sets and their willingness to work extremely hard, often under difficult conditions, to provide that care. In fact, I think our whole care economy really relies on skilled migration, as much of our economy does. That said, I think there's a space for a respectful discussion about sustainable migration. Let's be clear, though, that's not what is being engaged in by some of the more out-there political players. And unfortunately, the Liberal Party have snuck their way over to the far right when it comes to this particular issue. The party of Menzies is now singing from the song sheet of Pauline Hanson and One Nation, Murray. I think sensible people want to engage in the policy discussion, not the dog-whistling and the, dare I say it, some of the more race baiting elements of the discussion that are occurring on the fringes.
HOST: Yeah, that division is definitely un-Australian.
RAE: It is.
HOST: As we wrap up, coming back to the main subject before I let you go, because you've been very generous with your time this morning. But look, one of the important things that we should just briefly cover too, waiting times for residential aged care. It is something that people often find very, very frustrating.
RAE: That's very true, Murray. And what we have seen is with an ageing population, a population that is ageing faster than it ever has before, we have more people with a need, a greater demand for residential aged care than we ever have. And we've seen our sector unfortunately not realising the increases in supply. We're not seeing as many aged care beds and rooms built as we need to. We often say we need about 10,000 new units of aged care accommodation every single year in order to meet that future demand, and we're a long way off that. That's the truth, Murray. We're a long way off that. It's why these investments that we've made through the budget – you know, I spoke about that $3.7 billion of additional investment. Aged care costs the Australian budget about $47 billion a year as of next year, and that will continue to rise. So it's a big amount of money that taxpayers are investing in the aged care system. We need to make sure we get value for money there, but it's why we're doing things like creating capital subsidies and other considerations, other ways to induce investability in the residential aged care sector. We need more beds. We're going to keep working with the sector to make sure that we can deliver that in the years to come.
HOST: Yeah, waiting times, obviously, it's a difficult one, supply and demand, but obviously that's something that's clearly in focus. Great to talk to you. I'll let you get outside and enjoy some of the colours of Tropical North Queensland. Minister for Aged Care and Seniors, Sam Rae, thank you so much for your time this morning. Cheers.
RAE: Thank you, Murray.