TV interview with Minister Butler, Today Show – 19 May 2026

KARL STEFANOVIC, HOST: Well, the PM continues to be mocked this morning by entrepreneurs welcoming him as a silent partner in their small businesses. Health Minister Mark Butler and independent MP Monique Ryan join me now to discuss. Morning guys, nice to see you. OK Mark, I think I found your favourite meme. This is the PM- there he is, the big fella, as a plumber. Or perhaps you prefer him laying down some concrete. There you go. And wait for it. This is my favourite. The Pilates princess. How's that for a downward dog? Mark, how does feel to be an intergenerational laughingstock?
 
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR
DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: There are memes online all the time, Karl. I'm regularly online selling various dodgy health products, usually aimed at men your age and mine.
 
STEFANOVIC: [Laughs]
 
BUTLER: It's not a good basis for health policy, though. And, frankly, these aren't a good basis for tax policy. Our tax policies have two key principles. One is that people should pay broadly the same tax, whether they earn their income from wages, working in a hospital or an aged care facility, or whether they earn their income from a trust or from an asset. And of course, capital gains should be adjusted for inflation, and that's the basis of our tax policy going forward.
 
STEFANOVIC: So you're sticking with the death tax then?
 
BUTLER: You can almost set your watch, Karl, every few years for this scare campaign on a death tax. There hasn't been a tax on inheritances for 40 or 50 years and there's not going to be one for 40 or 50 years at least. It's just not a place Australia's going to go and there's not one in our budget.
 
STEFANOVIC: Even the motorbikes don't believe you this morning. Monique, how's the death tax landing in your electorate?
 
MONIQUE RYAN, INDEPENDENT MP: Look, Karl, I think there are three certainties in life. The first is death, the second is taxes, and the third is politicians running a scare campaign around death taxes. This is not a death tax, but I think it's probably fair to say that there are a lot of people out there who have concerns about the potential impact of the changes to capital gains tax on their dealings with their stock portfolios and on their small businesses and start-ups. And I think the Government does need to address those concerns for people and assuage some of the issues that they have around how this is going to affect them. People knew there were going to be tax changes around capital gains tax on housing. They didn't anticipate these broader measures. And it's up to the Government, really, to act on this.
 
STEFANOVIC: All right, Mark, on that point, your own caucus and Labor insiders all over the papers today saying it will make it harder for young Australians to start and to work in small businesses. Not even your own team likes it.
 
BUTLER: Again, to Monique's point about housing, I come back to that basic principle that we want to see people paying broadly the same tax no matter where they earn their income, whether it's shares or housing or working in a factory or an aged care facility.
 
STEFANOVIC: So you're not backing down from that?
 
BUTLER: Well, that's a broad principle and I think it's one we can sell to the Australian community. We've seen memes in the past of people working in factories and memes saying, why am I paying more income for working in a factory or an aged care facility than people who are earning their income through shares or the distributions from a trust? But to Monique's point about start-ups, we have said over recent days that, of course, we're going to consult with the start-up community in particular because we recognise that capital gains off effectively a zero cost-based starting point may have to be treated a little differently. We've been clear about that. It was in the budget papers that would have to be a point of consultation. I've seen it in the media today but it's already something Jim Chalmers has addressed.
 
STEFANOVIC: All right, so he hasn't addressed it, he said that he will address it so you may roll that back is what you’re saying?
 
BUTLER: In the budget papers, we said there would have to be consultation about how you treat capital gains for start-ups, because, effectively, the starting point, obviously, is pretty much zero, or at least a low-cost base. There may have to be some particular arrangements dealing with them. That's set out in the budget papers and Jim has repeated that over recent days.
 
STEFANOVIC: OK. Just one final one on the death tax if I can because I know you despise me saying death tax. So if they roll over assets into company structures that pay less tax, will they pay or will they not pay stamp duty? This is company structures.
 
BUTLER: From a trust, we've also said that there's a couple of years before new trust arrangements kick in, not before 2028, and we'll have to deal with a range of stakeholders, including state and territory governments, about the way in which they levy stamp duty. We've said that very clearly. We'll engage with states, but also there may have to be some rollover relief for small businesses that do structure their arrangements in the face of this.
 
STEFANOVIC: But what does that mean? What does that mean, you'll engage with state authorities? I mean, it's a state stamp duty, so I don't understand what that means.
 
BUTLER: It's not unusual for the Federal Government to talk to state and territories about how they levy stamp duties or other state taxes in the wake of federal changes. So we'll do that. But also if there is the need for some rollover relief for small businesses that restructure their arrangements because of changes to the trust laws, we've said again in the budget papers we're open to that and we'll be looking at that as well.
 
STEFANOVIC: All right, so if someone has died and left a will directing the creation of a testamentary trust and it takes years to sort out, will they eventually pay a death tax?
 
BUTLER: Mostly those trusts operate that your kids might get the inheritance at a particular age, age 25, and the trust is able to be used for living or education expenses. That's a fixed testamentary trust and that will not be subject to any change. For discretionary testamentary trusts, if they're already in existence, they're still covered by the old laws, but in the future they will be covered by new capital gains laws. So there's no tax on inheritance, there's no change to the treatment of fixed testamentary trust, and if you have a discretionary testamentary trust right now, or on budget night, no, they won't change either.
 
STEFANOVIC: All right.
 
BUTLER: So in the future, people should look at fixed testamentary trust arrangements.
 
STEFANOVIC: OK, one more thing, Monique. Something needed to be done about the NDIS rule. The whole of Australia knows that. But you don't like a lot of these changes either, right?
 
RYAN: No, and looking at the legislation that the Minister introduced to Parliament last Thursday, I think there's a real concern around overreach, the potential for overreach from the Minister administering the NDIA. We're seeing potential for cuts across the board to people's packages, even where the agencies decided that there are reasonable necessary needs for supports. I think- I had a community group last night with over 50 people online expressing incredible anxiety and fear about the potential impact of these changes on them. The changes are going to be pushed through too quickly. And I think the disability community is feeling really let down, to be honest, by the Government about these changes and how quickly they're being pushed through and how little consultation is being provided to the disability community about them.
 
STEFANOVIC: Well, you have the floor. Ask Mark something.
 
RYAN: Well, Minister, why is it reasonable for the agency and for an assessor to determine that a client has a certain package of needs, but then for the Minister to have the ability to cut that package in line with their concerns about financial sustainability of the scheme? It seems arbitrary and it seems like ministerial overreach.
 
BUTLER: What we're doing is a series of hard but necessary reforms in this area, and to that particular point, Monique, you know we're setting up a new process of establishing plans rather than having 760,000 different plans with different budgets a more equitable and frankly, more rational approach to the development of plans and budgets. And obviously, like any social program there's got to be budget sustainability, whether that's aged care, childcare or disability care through the NDIS. And the sort of growth that we've seen and the inability to get those finances under control, I think just requires a government to get this this thing back on track
 
STEFANOVIC: We're going to have to roll, guys.
 
BUTLER:If we’re going to maintain strong community support for this great reform.
 
STEFANOVIC: Let the questions keep coming. I appreciate you being on. Thank you so much, guys.