TV interview with Minister Butler, Insiders – 14 June 2026

DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Mark Butler, welcome to the program. Look, this was a serious charge and it was made repeatedly at those hearings. Will people die as a result of these changes?
 
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: No, they won't, David. The NDIS is probably the most significant social reform this country has made since Medicare in the 80s. It's transformed the lives of hundreds of thousands of Australians for the better and I completely understand why they're desperately concerned to hang on to that reform. I'm desperately concerned to do that  as well but the truth is the NDIS has got way off track. It's grown far too big, it costs too much and it's become a honeypot for shonks and rorters and that's why I've laid out this comprehensive plan, much of which reflects discussions that have been ongoing since the NDIS review was delivered three years ago now, to secure its future for people like those who are giving evidence to the Senate inquiry. But I want to reassure them, this will still be the biggest social program Australia has outside the age pension. It will grow every year, way bigger than Medicare, and it will remain the centrepiece of the most comprehensive suite of supports you will find anywhere in the world for people with disability, anywhere in Europe, anywhere in North America.
 
SPEERS: Well, let's go through some of the specific concerns that were raised, particularly on that safety issue. Under your bill, participants must exhaust all appropriate treatments before they can access the NDIS. Will some people then have to try riskier treatments, whether it's psychotropic drugs, menstrual suppressants, before they're allowed onto the NDIS?
 
BUTLER: No, we'll take a very common-sense approach to all this. The point of principle is that the NDIS was never intended to replace entirely health systems, rehabilitation systems and the like. It was set up for people with significant and permanent disability but we've been very clear in our evidence and in the explanatory memorandum that we would only expect people to take- avail themselves of reasonable systems of support.
 
SPEERS: So who makes that decision on whether someone has engaged in all appropriate treatments? Who decides whether they have or they haven't?
 
BUTLER: That will be the subject of further negotiation and advice in the months going forward.
 
SPEERS: Can't you say now what your plan is there or you haven't worked that out?
 
BUTLER: There are so many different permutations here. What we've tried to do is give some examples, David. For example, people with hearing loss would not be expected to avail themselves of a cochlear implant, an invasive- quite an invasive sort of treatment. Highly effective, but it should be up to the individual and their family whether they avail themselves of that. We wouldn't expect them to undertake psychotropic treatment that would effectively amount to chemical restraint. We've been very clear about that as well. So obviously we'd take a deeply ethical approach to this, not expect people to avail themselves of treatments that anyone would regard as unreasonable.
 
SPEERS: Alright. But the details are TBC, is it?
 
BUTLER: Yes. I come back to that point.
 
SPEERS: Okay.
 
BUTLER: I come back to that point. The NDIS was never intended to replace the broader health system and rehabilitation systems.
 
SPEERS: The other safety concern raised that came up at the inquiry was around the plan to cut funding for community and social participation. You want to save, I think, $13 billion or more. The Disability Discrimination Commissioner was amongst those raising concerns about this. She said that this would leave people with a disability severely isolated, increasing their vulnerability to abuse and violence. Are you willing to shift on this element?
 
BUTLER: No, we're focused on this as a really important way to control costs, but also deliver better supports for people engaging in social activity. What it's allowed us to do, importantly given some of the evidence that you played in your introduction, is to secure core support. So in no way will the core supports people rely upon it in accommodation, in their activities of daily living like showering, meals preparation, hygiene, continence, all those sorts of things, transport, their employment arrangements.
 
SPEERS: The community participation will be cut.
 
BUTLER: The social activity budgets will be paired back to where it was in 2023. We've seen it grow enormously in the last five years. It's grown from $4 billion to $12 billion in just five years. It costs now, just social activity, the same as the PBS. We've got to constrain that growth. It will still be a very, very substantial budget for people.
 
SPEERS: But will less community participation mean more isolation? This was the point that the Disability Commissioner raised.
 
BUTLER: It will still be substantially more than people were getting two, three years ago, way more than they were getting five years ago, but we do have to constrain that growth. Without the reforms I'm putting in place, that would grow to $20 billion by the end of the decade. That's simply not a sustainable position. It's also allowed us, as I said, to protect the core supports people rely upon for that safety that was part of your introduction.
 
SPEERS: Look, the states and territories have made a joint submission to the inquiry, raising a number of serious concerns. They said that what you're doing is inconsistent with commitments by all governments at National Cabinet in January and that the significant projected participant exits by 2031 are not accompanied by clearly defined alternative supports. On that first point, the states didn't sign up to cutting the growth rate of the NDIS down to 2 per cent, did they?
 
BUTLER: The state agreements that the premiers, not the disability ministers, the premiers and chief ministers signed are very clear. First of all, to return the NDIS to its original purpose of supporting people with significant permanent disability. The eligibility changes we make in this bill does that. Secondly, to get it back to 5 per cent growth going forward. You're right that the growth will be less than that in the forward estimates, the first four years, but that's because we have to reset the scheme to get it on a path for that sustainable growth that you see in systems like Medicare. And as to the system of supports outside the scheme we've been talking with states about this for three years now. There is 10 billion dollars allocated collectively by governments. That decision was made way back in 2023 and of course we've got to get on with that job. That's what I want to do with disability ministers rather than continuing to receive submissions like that. We've got a lot of work to do in the next 18 months before those new eligibility rules start to take effect. They'll then roll out through reassessments over the following three years. It's a fairly long period of time to shift to this new scheme. But I accept we've got a lot of work to do in that time.
 
SPEERS: A lot of work to do and from what the states are saying, they're not ready. What they're recommending, the states and territories, is that you specifically align the development of those foundational supports to the winding back of the NDIS So the two are linked. Will you agree to that alignment?
 
BUTLER: The Prime Minister and I have said we're not going to let people fall between two stools. We're not going to make changes that leave people without supports. But I'm also not going to raise the white flag on those timeframes now. I want the disability ministers to get on with the job, with the Commonwealth, of designing those foundational supports.
 
SPEERS: But if they're not ready, is what you're saying this morning, that you won't- you'll slow down the cuts to the NDIS if those state supports aren't ready?
 
BUTLER: The Prime Minister and I have said that since I announced the plan eight weeks ago here. Of course we're not going to leave people without support, but equally I'm not going to make that surrender now. We've got to get on with the job. We've got to get this scheme back on track and look to the Thriving Kids arrangements that you're familiar with, David, for- the arrangements for kids under nine. States are getting busy with setting up those plans. They've published their plans in the most part. They're starting to scale up systems of support for families and children under nine in locations families will be very comfortable and familiar with, child and parent centres, playgroups, there'll be targeted supports. All of that now is able to be seen online. I think there's a bit of posturing going on through this process.
 
SPEERS: From who? Who's posturing? Who's doing the posturing?
 
BUTLER: From state ministers. I'll be clear about that. I think that submission was an extraordinary submission, given the clear commitments that premiers signed on to a few months ago, in exchange for which the Commonwealth has made available $25 billion in additional funding to hospitals.
 
SPEERS: So you think they're just trying to squeeze more money out of you? Is that the bottom line?
 
BUTLER: This was a package deal. I don't know what they're trying to do. You have to ask them that. But this was a package deal and I think the community now expects all governments to get on with their job of delivering better hospital services and an NDIS that is secured for the long term.
 
SPEERS: And what about those in the disability sector we heard from at the hearing during the week? Do you think they're also putting it on?
 
BUTLER: No, I've been clear since I announced this plan that these are big changes and they will be very confronting for people. I remember life in the disability sector before the NDIS as well. The transformation, as I said, has been profound and long overdue and I understand why people want to hang on to it desperately. But I also want to give them an assurance. As I said, this will be a program that grows. It's the most comprehensive system of supports on the planet for people with disability. And most of the work to implement the plan that I announced eight weeks ago doesn't happen when the bill is passed, but happens over coming months. And of course, we will do that in close consultation with the disability sector as well as with states.
 
SPEERS: So listening to you this morning, it doesn't sound like you are willing to make any significant changes to what you've put forward in this legislation, is that correct?
 
BUTLER: The direction of travel is an important one for us to follow through. This largely reflects reviews and insights that we've gathered over the last three years, since that independent review was done of the NDIS in 2023 and endorsed by all governments at National Cabinet later that year. I'm utterly convinced this is the right plan for the NDIS and the hundreds of thousands of people that it supports. We’ve got to secure the future.
 
SPEERS: And nothing you've heard at the hearings over the last week have changed your view?
 
BUTLER: I'm not saying that there won't be any change. We've heard some ideas from the crossbench in the debate in the House of Representatives. I've certainly very much heard that people want greater reassurance about what won't change because of the reforms that we're putting in place. So I'm certainly not saying that we're not looking at things constructively. I'm looking forward to the report being delivered, as I've said over the last few days while the hearings have been underway. But the direction of travel, the need to make big changes that secure this incredibly important social program for the future, I'm convinced is the right direction of travel.
 
SPEERS: So no big change, but you are open to some adjustment. Can you give us a sense of what you've heard that you might have to rethink?
 
BUTLER: No, I don't want to pre-empt the report that's due to be delivered on Tuesday, David. I really don't. I want to give the Senate the respect that the inquiry deserves. It was a comprehensive set of evidence that they took over those few days. We've had hundreds of submissions that I imagine they're working over the weekend to collate and develop into a report.
 
SPEERS: Well the other strong point made across the board was that this is not long enough, this inquiry, it needs to be longer and indeed the Coalition is now saying they'd agree to a six-month extension of the inquiry if the Greens agree to a six-month extension of the tax inquiry. What would a six-month delay in starting these NDIS changes, what would that mean?
 
BUTLER: It would be six months more without the reform that the scheme needs. Six months more of people receiving services that aren't as good as they should be because a lot of the reforms that we're putting in place are to improve the quality of supports and services, to improve arrangements around integrity and fighting fraud. It would also, though, mean billions of dollars in the budget, $17 billion would be lost with a 12-month delay. You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work out what a six-month delay would involve.
 
SPEERS: So $8 or $9 billion cost? $8 or $9 billion cost?
 
BUTLER: I don't have the precise figure. It's not exactly 50 per cent of the 12-month figure, but it will run to billions and billions of dollars. And I've not heard Angus Taylor make an argument why this inquiry has not been long enough in and of itself. He's simply trying to use this as a pawn in a bigger chess game that he's seeking to play about other areas of the Budget. He should focus, I think, on what the best thing is for NDIS reform. He made some very constructive remarks in his Budget reply speech about this. Melissa McIntosh, the Shadow Minister, has been very constructive to engage with as well. So, I'd caution them about using what is a really important reform process as a pawn in a bigger game.
 
SPEERS: Just on some other issues, Mark Butler, the rise of One Nation. How damaging is this Fire the Liar campaign?
 
BUTLER: These campaigns come and they go. We've all run them, all political parties. We get a bit of online fundraising. We do a whole lot of social media. As I think Raff was saying in the introduction, there's been a whole lot of free media boosting of this as well. So, it will come and it will go. I think the broader question here is how we manage the fact that the community is really hurting. People have just experienced wave after wave of pressure on their household budgets, on their sense of security going forward for themselves and for their kids. We had the pandemic, we had the war in Ukraine, which spiked inflation around the world. And most recently, we've seen that happen again in the war in Iran and I get and we get that people are understandably sick of it. They just want some relief.
 
SPEERS: Have you personally spoken to anyone about why they're supporting One Nation?
 
BUTLER: I think it's pretty clear they're sick of the status quo.
 
SPEERS: Have you had any conversations with anyone about this?
 
BUTLER: Sure. People are engaging with my office. They're engaging with me about this. This is not a new dynamic. It might have a slightly new face, but this is not a new dynamic in Australian politics for us. We focus as the Labor Party on our job of doing everything in Government we can to make things easier for people, delivering more tax cuts, giving people a fairer break in housing. In my areas of responsibility, cleaning up things that need to be put back on track like the NDIS while we make medicines and doctor visits more affordable as well. But on the other side of politics, I think you do see a very significant shift happening. What I think you've seen over the last week is really One Nation breaking cover and making it clear that they're actually not interested in fighting the Coalition. They want to take over the Coalition.
 
SPEERS: Well, I think they're going after Labor, aren't they, with this campaign?
 
BUTLER: That's right. They take over the Coalition because fundamentally they are an anti-Labor party.
 
SPEERS: Okay.
 
BUTLER: And the Coalition is being rewritten and renegotiated. You'll see this happen under President Tony Abbott, where they think about preference deals, whether or not they're going to make way for each other in particular seats, although I hear Angus Taylor try to shut that down this week. It will come up again over the next couple of years.
 
SPEERS: We will see.
 
BUTLER: And you'll have the same policies you've always had from the anti-Labor Coalition forces, with some new faces perhaps, maybe with a harder edge, but opposed to wage increases, hostile to Medicare, and determined to divide Australia and talk the country down at a really difficult time.
 
SPEERS: Do you believe One Nation raised $3.7 million in a matter of days?
 
BUTLER: I honestly don't have a view about it, David. I haven't looked at it. Look, these things can raise a lot of money very, very quickly and I wouldn't be surprised if they had.
 
SPEERS: Labor's never raised anything like that so quickly, have they?
 
BUTLER: I honestly don't know. I don't look at what we raise either, David. I know that these online fundraising can go viral pretty quickly. And at a time where people are understandably sick of the way in which global politics and the economy is impacting their household budgets, it wouldn't surprise me.
 
SPEERS: Okay. Finally, Donald Trump says a deal with Iran is soon to be signed. And as for Iran's nuclear dust, as he calls it, the US will go in and get it at an appropriate time when it is calm. If the war ends with Iran still maintaining its uranium stockpile, what has this achieved?
 
BUTLER: Well, we said at the outset as a Government that we supported an objective that sought to make sure that Iran would never secure a nuclear weapons capability and also sought to constrain its ability to hurt its neighbours and frankly countries as far away as Australia. We've seen that over the last couple of years as you know, but we've also said for some time those objectives appear to have been met and it's time to bring this war to a close.
 
SPEERS:  Has it been met though if they've still got the uranium?
 
BUTLER: Let's see how these negotiations play out over the next little while whether it's 24 hours as we've heard from the US President, or slightly longer. None of us is counting our chickens quite yet, David, but we all want to see this egg hatch as soon as it possibly can.
 
SPEERS: Has it been worthwhile, this war?
 
BUTLER: That will take a little bit of time to analyse, I think.
 
SPEERS: You’re not sure?
 
BUTLER: We supported those objectives. We think they were worthwhile objectives.
 
SPEERS: But you're not sure if it's been a worthwhile war?
 
BUTLER: The damage done to the global economy, the damage done to humanity in the area in particularly has been profound. I mean, Iran was a rogue terrorist state. It had caused damage to our own country on the other side of the world and continued to destabilise that important region. So the status quo was really difficult to maintain. I get that. But this has been an incredibly damaging conflict to the global economy and has fed what we were just talking about in terms of people's sense of insecurity and dissatisfaction with how things are going.
 
SPEERS: Health Minister and Minister for Ageing, the Disability and the NDIS thank you very much for joining us this morning, Mark Butler.
 
BUTLER: Thanks, David.