ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Joining me now from Adelaide is the Health Minister, Mark Butler, thanks for your time. And I might start here, in terms of the Trump Presidency, on your old portfolio in opposition of climate change and energy, given that report. Trump pulling out of the Paris Agreement, doesn't that turn the world on its head in terms of climate change, net zero, all those sorts of targets, renewable energy? How do you see it playing out?
MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGED CARE, MARK BUTLER: We've seen this before with the former Trump administration taking a very different approach to climate change to his predecessors then the Obama administration. We also know – and I think the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Wong have said this – is this was a change election and former President Trump ran on a change platform. So we shouldn't be surprised if there is very significant policy change, both within the US but on the global stage as well. So this won't come as a surprise to my colleague, Climate Change Minister Chris Bowen, or to his colleagues around the world. But it won't stop the global investment shift, which is very much in the direction of net zero technology, whether that's in energy or in vehicles. We'll continue our case for global investment to come to Australia, because we have some of the best solar resources on the planet, some of the best wind resources on the planet, and some of the best scientists as well. So perhaps there's an upside for us, in terms of the investment shifting a bit more away from the US than it has under Joe Biden's term.
CLENNELL: Will the Government be doing a 2035 target before the election, do you think?
BUTLER: That's not a matter for the Health Minister. We'll take the usual evidence-based approach to that question, Andrew. As you know, that's a matter for the Prime Minister and Minister Bowen. We've got a legislated target of net zero emissions by 2050. We'll take a proper approach consulting with industry, with other stakeholders and receiving the best available scientific advice to comply with our international obligations to set a 2035 target. But more importantly, to make sure that we're able to continue to really take the enormous investment opportunities and job opportunities that come from the global shift to zero emissions.
CLENNELL: I mentioned that first Albanese-Trump phone call and the President's exclamation on that call, “we're going to be perfect friends”. Should Australia and its government take heart from that conversation?
BUTLER: We've been such close friends for decades and decades, particularly since the early 1940s. We've fought alongside each other. We've shared very common values and promoted them right across the world. We share very deep cultural and personal ties. There's no closer friend that we have than the United States. So that's a friendship and an alliance and a relationship that's transcended different personalities and different political parties. So we very much firmly expect that to continue over the next four years as well.
CLENNELL: What work is going on behind the scenes to ensure the Government can transition to a Trump administration?
BUTLER: There's been very, very detailed work, particularly in the relevant portfolios - you'd understand, Andrew - the economic portfolio, defence and foreign affairs. Very deep engagement, as you would always expect across the political spectrum. That's been a long-standing feature of our relationship with the US. It goes both ways: the Americans engage with the Government and the Opposition of the time, at the time here in Australia, and we do the same overseas. A particular focus of that engagement – as you know, Andrew – has been around the AUKUS project. We were particularly pleased to see the supporting legislation pass through the Congress with the support of significant Republicans - Mike Pompeo, for example, has been a focus of that engagement and was a very strong supporter of the AUKUS program. So you wouldn't be surprised that, of course, we've been engaging with both sides of politics in the lead into the election to make sure that Australia's interests were safeguarded, no matter the outcome.
CLENNELL: Does the government have any fears around what will happen in terms of Ukraine and Taiwan, from this change of US administration
BUTLER: That's not really a matter I'm heavily focused on, as the Health Minister. That really remains to be seen, whether there is any US administration change in relation to any of those global hotspots. I think we're all conscious of the fact that the world right now is a more dangerous, more conflicted place than perhaps it was four and eight years ago, unfortunately, because of the land war in Europe that we thought we'd never see again, and that the devastating conflict in the Middle East. And of course, there are ongoing tensions in our own region in the Asia Pacific. So we'll be working very, very closely with the US and with other likeminded countries and allies, always with an eye to promoting and protecting Australia's national interests.
CLENNELL: And do you expect Donald Trump to put a 10 per cent tariff on our exports to the US and how will that affect our economy?
BUTLER: Our trade relationship is a little different with the US. I think the US has a trade surplus with Australia. So there's not that same interest that perhaps former President Trump is articulating around the very big trade deficit they have with China when it comes to Australia. We will be out there promoting and protecting Australia's national interests. I think probably the greater concern that we have, about any impact of that sort of change on Australia's economic interests, is a more indirect impact about what it might do to global growth, to slow global growth even further - potentially to lift inflationary pressures in the global economy - that would have more of a knock on effect on Australia rather than a direct change to the US-Australia trading arrangements.
CLENNELL: And what about domestically? There's a spring in the step of Liberals here after the result. Do you see how cost of living hurt the Democrats, the issues of inflation and immigration, could they also see you lose office?
BUTLER: We don't take any election for granted. And we know that particularly right now: it's a very difficult time for incumbent governments because it's a really difficult time for households, right around the world. You're seeing that election after election: households expressing a very clear view that they want their governments focused on them. They want their governments doing everything they responsibly can to help them through this cost of living crisis that, really, we haven't seen of this type for more than 30 years, Andrew. And I think that has been our focus since we were elected. Every single Budget, from the early Budget we put in place in October 2022, has been so squarely focused on making sure we do everything we responsibly can to help households with their cost of living pressures, while not adding to inflationary pressures as well. Now, I'm not a US commentator, but you know, if you do take a lesson from the US election last week, it is the same lesson we take from other elections we've seen over the last 12 or 24 months. And that is: voters want to see their governments focused overwhelmingly on cost of living.
CLENNELL: I wanted to ask now about the situation involving the Shadow Transport Minister, Bridget McKenzie, being forced to declare 16 flight upgrades she didn't previously declare. Now she's issued an apology. But Peter Dutton and David Littleproud are not going to take action against her. Should she stay a Shadow Minister?
BUTLER: Ultimately that's a matter for Mr Dutton and Mr Littleproud and for Ms McKenzie herself. She was the chief prosecutor in this saga over the last couple of weeks and yet was obviously pretty casual about the way in which she declared her own upgrades. It’s really important that, as politicians, we are completely transparent about any gifts, any hospitality, that we receive in the course of our work as Members of Parliament. That we declare that transparently and in real time. That's available online, people can go and see, you know what I've received, what other Members of Parliament have received over the last sort of several years, going back many, years if they want to. And so the fact that someone in such an important position has not declared that, not just once or twice, but on many occasions, particularly given she's in the transport portfolio, is obviously pretty concerning. But ultimately, it's a matter for that side of politics to deal with that.
CLENNELL: Speaking of which, I see in July 2023 you received an upgrade to business on a personal trip with Qantas. Can you tell us who you approached for that, where that trip was to, and how that occurred?
BUTLER: To the best of my recollection, I was in Melbourne for a colleague's 50th birthday on the weekend. Obviously, I'd paid for my flight. It was a quick go over on Saturday afternoon, come back on Sunday morning. I'd booked myself and to the best of my recollection, I got to the airport and they had upgraded me. This happens by airlines to shift the load in their airline. If they have a spare business class seat, generally they'll upgrade an economy class passenger up to that, so they can then on-sell the economy class seat, for which there's always more demand than there is capacity. So I didn't ask anyone for it. I simply arrived at the airport and got handed a ticket that was an upgrade. I declared it in the proper way. This is not uncommon.
CLENNELL: Now, COVID is kind of in the distant memory now, but you're announcing you've announced today that Australian mums and newborns will have free access to the best vaccine to prevent the RSV virus ahead of winter 2025. What's behind this move?
BUTLER: COVID was overwhelmingly an illness that afflicted older Australians. RSV is overwhelmingly an illness that hits the youngest members of our community. So this year, for example, we've seen about 160,000 cases of RSV recorded over the course of this winter. Fully half of them were under four-year-olds. It really hits under two-year-olds very, very hard. It's the leading cause of hospitalisation for babies. Today I'm absolutely delighted to be able to announce one of the world's most comprehensive vaccination and protection programmes for Australia's babies. We think about 12,000 babies are hospitalised every year, every winter, through RSV. The leading cause, as I said, of hospitalisation. About a quarter of them end up in ICU. This program I'm announcing today, we think will cut that hospitalisation rate by up to 90% - a huge win for families and for babies.
CLENNELL: I wanted to ask about this COVID Inquiry the other week. A lot of people were a bit underwhelmed by this, that the states weren't put under the blowtorch a bit more, and the chief recommendation seemed to be a Labor election promise in 2022: a Centre for Disease Control. Shouldn't that be pretty much up and running by now?
BUTLER: We waited to hear the lessons and the recommendations of the COVID Inquiry before finalising our design of the Centre for Disease Control. But I think you need to look deeper into this report, Andrew. It really is a very comprehensive, measured, sensible report that does examine a range of the decisions that state governments were taking, right through the report. In particular, there is very detailed commentary about the mental health impacts and broader impacts on children and younger Australians of a range of decisions that were taken: around school closures, around who could attend playgrounds, and so much more besides. So this commentary that they didn't think about the decisions taken by state governments just doesn't bear out a reading of the Inquiry report. It doesn't pull its punches at all.
The most important of a range of findings, I think, that it makes is that here in Australia, we didn't shift at the time we should, from essentially a precautionary approach, which was appropriate in the first few months of the pandemic, to a more evidence-based approach to decision making. An approach that balanced the benefits and the risks associated with a particular decision, and also took account of those non-COVID risks, as I said, particularly mental health impacts, given the really the scale of the decision making on people's freedoms and ability to go about their usual lives. And that was, I think, a very profound finding of the Inquiry, which then went on to say that the lack of that shift and the lack of transparency around decision making has led to a very serious erosion of trust among the community. Which means that if a pandemic like COVID happened again next week, that we would be unlikely to get the sort of cooperation from the community that we had, to things like lockdowns and closures that were so central to our pandemic response.
CLENNELL: There's been a setback last week in this week criminal migration detainees case. Now you want to introduce legislation to detain them and send them to a third country. Any idea which country would take them?
BUTLER: That's a matter that Tony Burke is working on very, very hard. We don't want to introduce legislation. We have introduced legislation, Andrew, within hours of the High Court decision coming down, which said that we were not legally able to continue with the measures we had in place: electronic monitoring devices like ankle bracelets and curfews and so on and so forth. Within hours, Tony Burke had travelled to the Governor-General, promulgated new regulations allowing him to put in place those arrangements again, obviously under different legal scenarios, but then also introduce legislation within 24 hours of the High Court decision. First of all, to support our ability to do that. But secondly, as you say, to look to removing these people from Australia. I mean, they shouldn't be here. They're not owed protection. They've committed crimes in Australia. And we're determined to do everything we can to remove them from our country.
CLENNELL: But which country would take them? Would it be the US? Would it be Nauru? Who would want people with these sorts of records?
BUTLER: That's a matter that Tony Burke is working hard on, right now. He was prepared for that High Court decision. It's not the decision we wanted. It's a decision we argued very strongly against in the Court. But we knew there was a risk, of course, that the High Court would find against the Government. It has done that before. It did it 12 months ago. So we were fully prepared for that scenario. And Tony Burke is already acting on it.
CLENNELL: And finally, the report of the new Parliamentary Workplace Support Service. The annual report reported 30 complaints of serious wrongdoing it reveals, including sexual assault and a lot of complaints from parliament political staff, I guess. What's your reaction to that?
BUTLER: It's really concerning. But as many who've worked in Parliament or around Parliament for a long time, perhaps, have said: it's not entirely surprising. This is a workplace that really does need to lift its standards. And I think putting that process or that structure in place is an important first step. People need to be held accountable for poor behaviour, whether it's MPs, staff, employees at Parliament House. This process is starting to work, but I think this report really concerningly shows that Parliament still has a way to go
CLENNELL: Health Minister Mark Butler, thanks so much for your time.
BUTLER: Thanks, Andrew.
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