BRIDGET BRENNAN, HOST: Well, let's get more now on the government's changes to the NDIS. The NDIS Minister and the Health Minister, Mark Butler, joins us now from Melbourne. Thanks very much, Minister, for your time this morning.
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: My pleasure, Bridget.
BRENNAN: Really transformational changes being flagged to the NDIS, some of the most major changes to the scheme we've seen since its inception. Why does this need to happen?
BUTLER: Well, what we've found is that the areas of disability for which really the NDIS was created are broadly in numbers terms what we projected 10 years ago, with one exception, and that is kids with developmental delay or autism. There are tens and tens of thousands of those young children with mild to moderate levels of those conditions who are on the NDIS not because that's what the scheme was designed for but because there's no alternative. Parents have been left with that as the only port in the storm. We've taken the view, with lots of expert advice, that the proper thing for those kids is a broad-based mainstream system of supports rather than a scheme built for permanent disability. Now, I've said over the next couple of years, that is what we'll build, a system for thriving kids that is what parents and children need with that level of developmental delay in autism.
BRENNAN: For some families an autism diagnosis is permanent, though. It is a lifelong thing they have to live with. Why can't they stay in the NDIS?
BUTLER: Well, if it is permanent and significant, then of course that's what the NDIS was created for. But if it is at a mild or moderate level, there will be broad-based mainstream supports available for children. I mean, you're absolutely right. Autism may indeed stay with a person for their entire life and supports around them will be needed, but not necessarily the sort of supports you see in a scheme for permanent significant disability. I think that's the point we're trying to make. We've seen something of a mission creep by the NDIS here into an area that it wasn't intended to cover, and that's really because parents had no alternative. All the mainstream supports that had been in place for years or in some cases decades were largely dismantled in order to fund the NDIS, and what I committed to yesterday was rebuilding those systems to ensure that parents did have access to mainstream broad-based supports to help their kids thrive.
BRENNAN: What expert advice have you sought in the design of this scheme and why has it taken some in the sector by surprise?
BUTLER: Well, I don't think anyone should be taken by surprise. It was a key message from the NDIS review that was commissioned in 2022 and delivered in 2023, that these sorts of supports, what the review called foundational supports, should be put in place for this cohort. National Cabinet accepted that recommendation back in 2023, and there's been work underway between states and the Commonwealth about that ever since.
What I tried to do yesterday was to inject a sense of urgency about this because more and more children with these levels of developmental delay and autism have been entering the scheme because there's no alternative. I mean, we have to get on with the work that we were recommended to do back in 2023, a recommendation that National Cabinet accepted that the sector has been quite aware of now for all of that time.
BRENNAN: Is there a risk that some children who are falling off the NDIS for example, could have a bit of a window where they're not supported by anything before the scheme is ready, as promised, in July next year?
BUTLER: Well, the scheme will start in July next year, but will take 12 months to ramp up. So access changes to the NDIS won't kick in until 2027, so about two years from now. But I want to reassure parents, there is no way I'm going to let children slip between two stools. If you're on the NDIS now, if you enter the NDIS before 2027, your child will be entitled to remain on the NDIS subject to all of those usual arrangements. What I'm keen to do, though, what I'm determined to do, is to build a system of supports in the community, broad-based mainstream support, so the NDIS is not the only port in the storm for parents, which is what it is now. They often have to wait for ages, pay thousands of dollars to get that diagnosis, which is the entry point to the only system of support that they have right now. We've got to change that.
BRENNAN: What about your negotiations with the states and territories? I think the Queensland Government's quoted this morning saying it didn't know anything about this. Are you having some tricky negotiations with the states and territories about their level of involvement and collaboration on this?
BUTLER: Well, the announcement yesterday in very large part is a response to feedback from the states. They said that they wanted the Commonwealth to lean in more heavily. The sector said they didn't want eight different schemes in eight different states and territories built. They want something that is nationally consistent. The states also said they wanted the Commonwealth to commit to funding this on an ongoing basis and I made that commitment yesterday as well. So really what we're doing is responding to feedback we've got not just from states and territories but also from the sector that we need a nationally consistent system to support thriving kids, and that's what I am determined to build.
BRENNAN: And do you think you'll be able to continue to crack down on fraud? I mean a lot of the focus on waste in the NDIS seems to stigmatise families who are trying to get onto the system, when in fact there are so many dodgy providers still out there, Minister.
BUTLER: Absolutely. The problem with fraud and integrity is not a problem with participants. It's a problem with dodgy providers, people who've come to a system that doesn't have enough discipline and integrity and realised it's a field day for rip-off merchants. And we have to do better than that. I said yesterday that 15 out of every 16 NDIS providers are unregistered. We have no sense of who they are, what their qualifications are. There's not enough evidence to support some of the services that are being provided. These sorts of systems of discipline and integrity are common in the health system, in aged care, in veterans care, and they have to be introduced to the NDIS to ensure that participants get the full value for money, but also taxpayers have confidence that this large investment into a scheme that has transformed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people with disability, has integrity, has discipline.
BRENNAN: Mark Butler, thanks for your time this morning.
BUTLER: Thanks, Bridget.