SABRA LANE, HOST: Mark Butler, welcome back to AM.
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: Thank you, Sabra.
LANE: You argue that change is urgent because the social licence of the NDIS is at risk. How long have you got to fix this before the social licence is exhausted?
BUTLER: Change will take some time obviously, particularly to build a system for thriving kids that parents have confidence in, that has the right emphasis points. But I think what the community is saying they want a sense from their government that we get the need to make change. That they overwhelmingly think that this is a scheme they should be proud of, that has transformed the lives of people with disability, but they’re concerned it’s costing too much and has too many inefficiencies and too many dodgy providers.
LANE: To the point of that question though, how long before social licence is exhausted?
BUTLER: If there were more years of essentially drift of government, state and federal, not being able to agree on what needs to be done, then I think you would start to see that social licence go. The fact that 70 per cent of Australians think that the NDIS is costing too much and is rife with inefficiencies and dodgy providers, tells you there’s a level of concern out in the community. Indeed, six in 10 Australians think the NDIS is broken, and that’s why I try to inject a sense of urgency about these things, making sure we can get cost growth down even further than the target of 8 per cent next year. But also build a system to support kids to thrive rather than expecting parents and children with relatively mild to moderate levels of developmental delay or autism to go onto a scheme built for permanent significant disability.
LANE: Queensland says though the first they learned about this new planned scheme, Thriving Kids, was when you spoke at the press club yesterday. Other states know very little. Is this the best way to design a new program co-funded by the states?
BUTLER: State feedback had been very clear. They wanted the Commonwealth to lean in further. They were concerned that they were being left to design this scheme themselves. Stakeholders told me they didn’t understand why there would be a system of eight different schemes at different state and territory level. And also states told me they were concerned that there was no commitment of ongoing funding beyond five years from the Commonwealth. And so, yesterday’s speech was about injecting that confidence, not just among states and territories, but importantly among stakeholders, that the Commonwealth would take a lead and would commit ongoing funding.
LANE: This new scheme, the Thriving Kids, it’s not designed yet. You want it up and running by July next year. Do you need to set a deadline for the states to agree to all of this and to co-fund it, otherwise you’re going to flounder, like the last idea?
BUTLER: We’ve made it clear, and I think states agree, we want this deal settled by the end of the year. We want the program for Thriving Kids to start on 1July, but it will take 12 months to ramp up to its full level. There’s really an almost two-year process to get this to where it needs to be.
LANE: One in six boys in year 2 at primary school are currently on the NDIS for developmental delays or mild autism. Are other countries experiencing such high levels?
BUTLER: I don’t think they are. That's the advice that I received. But I think the reason why they're on the NDIS is because there's no alternative system of support. And this is the only port in the storm, as I described it yesterday. It requires parents to spend a lot of time and usually a lot of money, thousands of dollars sometimes to get a diagnosis, and then a NDIS plan which provides them with a budget no real direction about how to spend it.
Traditionally, what we've done for parents whose kids are missing developmental milestones is to guide them, provide them with an evidence-based, well-curated system of support. But that was broken down after the establishment of the NDIS.
LANE: Kids who are currently on the NDIS for mild autism or developmental delays, could it be in future reassessments, once the Thriving Kids program is up and fully operational, that they too are diverted to this?
BUTLER: I wanted to be really clear that if your child is on the NDIS nothing I said yesterday will change that. Kids are not going to be taken off the NDIS because of what I said yesterday. But there are normal reassessment processes for children who are on the early intervention scheme. Expert advice says that they should take place every one to two years. Those children were not expected to be on the scheme for their entire life unless they're shown to have permanent, very significant disability. Reassessments and exits from the scheme are an ordinary part of the scheme, but that's really an operational question that the agency runs.
LANE: Now, to the NDIS, it's currently growing at around 10 to 12 per cent a year. The aim is to get that by 8 per cent by July 2029. Is that right? But you admit that that even is unsustainable, that the growth rate should about 5 to 6 per cent. When would you like to see that achieved? Have you got a target in mind?
BUTLER: The agreement from National Cabinet was to get the growth down to 8 per cent by July ’26, so next year, we're on track to do that. But frankly, everything that we've put in place would have to go right. The latest quarterly report still shows that participant numbers, so new entrants to the scheme, are growing still very fast. The last year, they grew faster than the previous year. There is still a lot to do just to get that growth down to 8 per cent. But as I said yesterday, 8 per cent is still unsustainable. And so, we do need a next wave of reform that I imagine would start next year. Ultimately, that's a matter for National Cabinet, for the Prime Ministers and premiers to direct us on. But I imagine that would start next year and start to deliver further savings over the course of the next budget period over four years.
LANE: So, 5 to 6 per cent, you'd like to see that by 2027, 2028?
BUTLER: That's ultimately going to be a matter for National Cabinet and I'll take their guidance on that, obviously, as a good Minister. But I think you would see those savings during the four-year budget period.
LANE: Mark Butler, thanks for talking to AM.
BUTLER: Thanks Sabra.