Radio interview with Minister Butler, 2SM Mornings – 22 August 2025

CHRIS SMITH, HOST: Well, Health and Disability Minister Mark Butler has unveiled a major overhaul of the National Disability Insurance Scheme, NDIS. We discussed it at length yesterday. It includes the creation of a new Thriving Kids program aimed at treating autistic children with moderate diagnoses; tighter NDIS eligibility; reforms to NDIS structure and funding flows, all with the goal of slowing NDIS cost growth. From mid-2026, children with mild to moderate autism will be gradually transitioned out of the NDIS into the new Thriving Kids system of foundational supports. Now, the change will reign in the $46 billion NDIS, which is forecast to cost $105 billion in a decade, would you believe, if we don’t do something significant. But it has also left many parents of kids with autism upset, fuming, confused. Health and Disability Minister Mark Butler joins me on the line right now. Minister Butler, welcome to the Super Radio Network.
 
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: Yeah, morning, Chris.

SMITH: Good to have you with us. Now, the Sydney Morning Herald today says you’ve blindsided the states. The Victorian Premier says the first she heard about this was when you mentioned it at the National Press Club on Wednesday. Was it a bit of an off-the-cuff announcement during the productivity roundtable, or had it been on the drawing board?
 
BUTLER: No, well, first of all, it comes after almost two years of negotiations and discussions between the states and the Commonwealth. Back in 2023 now, so almost two years ago, there was a big review of the NDIS that recommended we set up an alternative system of supports for kids with mild to moderate needs. That report, that recommendation particularly, was accepted by a National Cabinet, which, as you know, Chris, is all the premiers and the Prime Minister.
 
SMITH: Well, what's the Victorian Premier on about then?
 
BUTLER: For a couple of years we've been negotiating about it. Now, two messages I got from the states were, first of all, they wanted the Commonwealth to lean in more into this, that they wanted us to take more of a leadership role. I think Chris Minns in his comments yesterday pointed out that it wouldn't make sense to have a New South Wales system of supports, a Victorian system of supports, and so on and so forth. At the Press Club this week, I decided to do that. I heard that message from them and from the community, for that matter. They wanted a nationally consistent system led by the Commonwealth. Obviously, states are key partners.
 
The second thing that the states were telling us is that they wanted an ongoing funding commitment from the Commonwealth rather than just for five years for this program for kids. And again, I delivered that this week. I just think we need to get on with the job. It's been two years now. The latest report on the NDIS that we got last week showed that the number of kids coming into the scheme is still growing. It's growing very, very fast. And remember, you'd certainly remember this, Chris, this was a scheme built for permanent profound disability, not for kids with relatively mild to moderate developmental delay or autism symptoms.
 
SMITH: Who can also get on the improve with particular drugs and behavioural treatment, right?
 
BUTLER: Absolutely. But look, there are so many kids with these issues. It's a mainstream broad-based issue that should be supported by mainstream broad-based services. Right now, parents have to get onto a very long wait list to get a diagnosis. They have to pay thousands of dollars often for that diagnosis from a medical specialist. And then, they're put on a scheme that wasn't really designed for them, really. It's really important we do everything we can to support parents ensuring their kids can thrive. I'm convinced that's not through a scheme that was set up for permanent profound disability. If there are kids with that level of disability, of course they will stay on the NDIS That's what the scheme was built for.
 
SMITH: So why? Why are the numbers so incredible to believe? Is it being over-diagnosed, do you think?
 
BUTLER: Look, I think you'd have to get a clinical expert on to answer that question, Chris. All that I know is that for parents, this has been for many years now the only port in the storm. All of those systems that existed before the NDIS was created for kids and their parents have largely been wound back in order to pay for the NDIS. We've sort of got to rebuild them. They're still there, infant and maternal health systems, obviously your GPs, your allied health providers like speechies and OTs and the like, community health centres, all the rest. They're still there, but they need more focus, they need more resourcing to ensure that parents can access them when they want, that parents can get the right advice about whether or not their kid is hitting the development milestones you'd expect at one, two, three, four years old.
 
SMITH: You mentioned at the National Press Club that there's this idea floating around, adopting a Julia Gillard initiative actually. and reassessing all these diagnoses. Is that what you're getting at? And does that indicate that you are a little bit suspect about the over-diagnoses?
 
BUTLER: It's long been a feature of the NDIS that particularly young people on this early intervention stream should be subject to a reassessment every one or two years. That hasn't been happening as much as probably it should over the last decade. It's essentially an operational question for the NDIS. But yes, if kids come in with some developmental delay on an early intervention pathway that's intended to help them recover that development milestone, then of course you would reassess them. It's not the same as what is clearly going to be a permanent, probably pretty stable disability, for example, quadriplegia, paraplegia. These sorts of conditions that are going on the early intervention pathway should, of course, be reassessed so that we know how the child in question is progressing.
 
SMITH: Okay. Is what was reported today also correct, that NDIS reassessments had already shifted many kids with autism off the NDIS?
 
BUTLER: If they have, and to the extent they have, it is because there is a view that the child's situation has improved to the extent that they can move to mainstream supports out in the community. Really, we've always got to come back to the original purpose of the NDIS, and that is to support people with permanent profound disability. There's still a range of supports in the healthcare system, in the community sector, for people with different levels of need, particularly more mild to moderate levels of need, and that is where they should be getting those supports. This all about securing the future as well of the NDIS, Chris. You talked about those growth numbers at the beginning. That was also a big focus of the speech I gave this week. It's a bit separate from the question of where children are best supported.
 
SMITH: Yeah, but it's unsustainable.
 
BUTLER: It's growing too fast. And I worry that this is now a point of discussion within the community, that it’s growing too fast. People will hear this drumbeat of stories of shonks and fraudsters and rip-off merchants making hay, really, because there's not enough integrity and discipline in the scheme. Now, I have responsibility, as you know, for health and aged care and disability now. And I can tell you, having worked in aged care, for example, for three decades, there's much more rigour in that scheme – for example, providers have to be registered. There's disciplined pricing mechanisms in place that give taxpayers confidence that they're getting best value for money for the big taxpayer investment in that scheme, and also that participants or recipients of aged care are getting everything that they should. Money's not being wasted. Money's not ending up in the pockets of shonks.
 
SMITH: Yeah, we get so angry with that. And I tell you, I can't tell you how many calls I get on the stories that appear almost weekly about the next shonk who had five cars, et cetera, based on what he got out of the NDIS. People are furious about that stuff.
 
BUTLER: It is just disgusting. This is money that taxpayers have wilfully invested. Taxpayers still think this has been, I've seen the research, Australians still are confident this is a scheme that has transformed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people with disability.
 
SMITH: Yes.
 
BUTLER: But they are worried about the growth, they are worried about the shonks and they expect their government to clean it up.
 
SMITH: So do you promise my listeners at the very least, and the rest of Australia that you can firm up the system to cut down drastically on the shonks and the availability of that money?
 
BUTLER: Absolutely. I mapped that out at the Press Club. I want more pricing discipline in the NDIS, not ridiculous prices being charged that you don't see in aged care, you don't see in veterans care, you don't see in health. I want providers to be registered. 15 out of every 16 NDIS providers are unregistered. We have no idea who they are, what their character is, what their qualifications are. We know there are some bad people in the scheme. We've got to clean that up. Again, it's not rocket science. We do it in veterans care, in aged care, and we've got to crack down on the fraud and start putting these people in court.
 
SMITH: Good, Last question on the NDIS. Here's the questions I'm hearing from parents whose kids have a degree of autism. They are worried that their kids are going to slip through the cracks in this transition. How do you stop that?
 
BUTLER: I'm going to work so hard to make sure no parent, no child is left high and dry. If you're on the NDIS, if your child is on the NDIS right now, you can stay on the NDIS. If your child enters the NDIS over this transition period, they will stay on the NDIS subject to all of those usual arrangements. We've got ourselves a couple of years to make sure we get the right system operating at full pace. I'm convinced it's the right answer to the challenge we have, the responsibility we have to support parents and ensure that their kids thrive. But of course, my job is to make sure no one slips through the cracks.
 
SMITH: Okay, question without notice before we let you go. Once you've tackled this issue, will you turn your focus to older Australians? The aged care system is, well, completely broken, a lot of people tell me. On top of that, the Treasurer is now talking about generational equity, which means stinging older Australians with more taxes on the money they've saved to provide for a comfortable old age. When you put those two together, it comes up with some very sensitive territory.
 
BUTLER: We've got a new aged care system that we passed through the Parliament, because I am the Minister with responsibility for this sector as well. We passed it through the Parliament before Christmas. We worked really hard with the Opposition – my shadow, Anne Ruston and I worked very hard to deliver a system that had bipartisan support because we know we need better aged care. We need more home care, particularly for people who need some support in their own home rather than in an aged care facility. That kicks in on 1 November. I'm really conscious, Chris, I've worked in this sector for more than three decades in aged care. I love it. I know how important it is to support people who've worked their entire lives, paid their taxes, raised their families, and we need a lot more of it. My dad's one of the oldest baby boomers. He was born in 1945 when his dad came back from the war. There are big numbers of people now hitting the aged care system, and they deserve the best quality care.
 
SMITH: Yeah. Good to have you on the program, you're most welcome anytime. Thank you for your time.
 
BUTLER: Thanks, Chris.