Radio interview with Minister Butler, 2GB – 21 August 2025

MARK LEVY, HOST: Well, I spoke about autism and the NDIS on the program yesterday, and it's clear that there are serious problems with how the scheme operates. The scheme, which is now 12 years old, has seen cost blowout after cost blowout, and now sits at around $46 billion annually. And much of that is due to the rapid uptake of the service, particularly from those with conditions that may not have been part of the original scope of the NDIS. Autism is one example of that, with seven in 10 people who joined the service in the past year doing so for support with the condition. It's reached the point that one in six boys is now on the NDIS. That's why we saw this announcement from the Government yesterday with major changes coming to the NDIS, with the Minister Mark Butler saying at the National Press Club that the National Disability Insurance Scheme is not the right fit for thousands of children with autism or developmental delay conditions. Instead, these users of the scheme will be diverted from the NDIS from mid-2027 and move to a new Thriving Kids program. I thought we'd catch up with the Minister for Health and the Minister for the NDIS, Mark Butler. He joins me on the line right now. Minister, good morning to you.
 
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGEING, MINISTER FOR DISABILITY AND THE NDIS: Morning, Mark.
 
LEVY: Well, I said off the top of the program you're in the unenviable position, and you've got two massive portfolios look after, Health and the NDIS. And I must admit, I think it's great to have you in this position because we're finally seeing some movement on all of this. But let's just start with an overall look at the scheme. It's quite clear that it's unsustainable in its current form, isn't it?
 
BUTLER: It's costing too much. It's costing way more than we projected. And there are really two issues with that. One is there's frankly not enough discipline and integrity in the scheme. There's too many people making hay, rip-off merchants, dodgy providers. We don't have good price arrangements there. A whole lot of providers are completely unregistered and unregulated, so we don't really know what they're doing. We've got to introduce more discipline generally into the scheme. That's the first challenge, and that will get cost growth down.
 
But the second one, which you talked about in your intro, Mark, is the scheme’s become the only port in the storm for tens and tens of thousands of parents whose kids are not hitting their milestones or might have mild to moderate levels of autism. And frankly, we need a more broad-based mainstream system of supports for those kids and for their parents. We used to have them before the NDIS. They were largely dismantled in order to fund the disability scheme. But we've got to rebuild it because those kids, and you talked about one in six grade two boys, one in four some parts of New South Wales, should not be on a scheme that was built for significant permanent disability. Now, I want to stress that doesn't mean there won't be any people with autism on the NDIS. If you have a level of autism that is significantly and permanently disabling, then the NDIS is the right scheme for you. But if it's at a more mild to moderate level or if you've got developmental delay as a young child, you should be on a broad-based system of support. And I'm determined to build that system again.
 
LEVY: Alright. Well, I think it's important for the listeners' perspective and for those mums and dads out there just to sort of get an idea on how this new Thriving Kids program will work, when it’ll come into place. Can you explain that for us, Minister?
 
BUTLER: I want to start to ramp it up in the middle of next year. I want it fully rolled out by the middle of 2027, so we've got a bit of time. It's important to remember that National Cabinet, so all of the premiers and the Prime Minister, accepted this direction a couple of years ago. But we now just have to make it work, and it will tap into many of the systems that parents are familiar with already. The child and maternal health systems for very, very young children. Children at the age of two, three and four, they'll be seeing their local GPs, they'll be probably with early learning centres and community health centres. Making sure they have focus, they have the level of resourcing needed to support these kids and their parents, that's the sort of work. We don't have to get a blank sheet of paper out and a pen and start designing a system from scratch. Their bones of it are already there. They're systems that parents are familiar with and comfortable with. We've just got to build them out and give them better focus and resourcing to support these kids who really do need support at those crucial parts of their life.
 
LEVY: What's it going to cost?
 
BUTLER: All of the premiers and Prime Ministers allocated between them $10 billion over five years back in 2023. That's $5 billion from the Commonwealth and $5 billion from states. And that money was intended to support two groups of people in the community. First, the kids that we're talking about today, Mark, but also adults with quite severe chronic mental illness, which is a group that we'll have to come to a little later. I committed $2 billion on behalf of the Commonwealth yesterday, over four years. The commitment by National Cabinet was that states would match that. Obviously, not each of the states would do that, but collectively, the states would put in $2 billion to that well. And I'm confident with that level of resourcing, we can build a robust system for Thriving Kids and ensure that parents do have a level of support available to them in their community. They don't have to wait for months and months and months to get a diagnosis and pay thousands and thousands of dollars for that diagnosis just to get some support. It'll be there readily available to them.
 
LEVY: Are you actually saving any money, though, when it comes to the budget bottom line, or are you just shifting the cost of these kids in need of assistance from the NDIS to this new program?
 
BUTLER: I said yesterday we've got to get the cost of the NDIS down further. When we came to government, it was growing at 22 per cent per year, just an extraordinary level of growth in cost. And we're getting that down. We've agreed with states to get it down to 8 per cent next year. But that’s still very high.
 
LEVY: But do you see what I mean, with respect, Minister, though? I mean, because you've got a cost of it at the moment under the NDIS, but all we're doing is shifting the cost to this new program, Thriving Kids. So I guess I'll ask the question again, are you actually saving any money with this?
 
BUTLER: We will be. I want to make the point, there's other ways to save money in the NDIS, because there's too much inefficiency and ill-discipline in the scheme generally. But in relation to kids with mild to moderate levels of developmental delay or autism, this will be not just a more effective package for parents and kids, but also, frankly, a more efficient way to spend taxpayers' money. I said yesterday, there's a very significant degree of over-servicing within the NDIS of these children. Like, an average child with moderate levels of developmental delay is getting more than 70 sessions of therapy every single year. Now, it's unheard of in the healthcare system you'd have that level of servicing. Taking kids out of learning and other activities that regularly for therapy. And there's no evidence I'm aware of that that's an effective way to support a child. But the thing is, the NDIS doesn't require that level of evidence, unlike Medicare, which would require a rigorous assessment of that sort of therapy regime before agreeing to fund it. So will be more efficient as well as being more effective for parents and kids.
 
LEVY: Well, what would you say then to the parents, Minister, who have had that level of servicing and are now going to be left without it? What would you say to those parents who might be listening to you this morning going, well, hang on, am I about to lose the assistance that I've got with my child? Because every parent out there wants what's best for their son or their daughter.
 
BUTLER: They do. And I said yesterday that for many parents, this will be a hard message to hear. I recognise this has been the only port in the storm for parents. I'm in no way blaming them for this situation. Governments have failed parents by really giving them only one choice, and that is to go away and try and find a diagnosis at very significant cost to get entry to the NDIS because it was the only scheme available to them. If you're on the NDIS now, if your child is on the NDIS, you will remain on the NDIS subject to all of those usual arrangements. I'm talking about a scheme for children into the future. I understand parents will be uncertain about the announcements I've made over the last 24 hours. I want to reassure them that there is absolutely no way I'm going to let our precious children fall between two stools. We will make sure that this system is fully up and running before we make any change to the NDIS eligibility.
 
LEVY: Alright.
 
BUTLER: - or access rules. We'll make sure that if you're on the NDIS now, if your kid's on the NDIS, then that's the choice that's been made and your child is entitled to stay on it, subject to the usual arrangements.
 
LEVY: Alright. I note there's a quote in one of the papers today from the Queensland Disability Minister, Amanda Camm, who said today was the first time we'd heard about the Minister's Thriving Kids program. My question to you, Minister, is were the states and territories consulted, and have you spoken to the Opposition about it? Are they on board with what you're trying to do in reforming the NDIS?
 
BUTLER: What as I said, the National Cabinet took this decision in principle back in 2023, and state feedback about what it's meant for kids from their perspective has been really twofold. Firstly, they've said that they didn't think the Commonwealth was leaning in hard enough, that they were being expected to do more of the heavy lifting to design this program. I’ve responded to that.
 
LEVY: Were they consulted, though, on Thriving Kids in the Opposition?
 
BUTLER: We've been talking about this for two years is the point I've made. Both disability ministers have been, but I've also been talking with health ministers because it's really those health systems like infant and maternal health systems that will be, from a state perspective at least, called on to do some more heavy lifting here.
 
But the second thing that states raised as a concern was that the Commonwealth had not committed funding beyond five years. And I've responded to that concern as yesterday, committing to funding this on an ongoing basis. But I also heard, not just from state governments, the sector generally was saying, we don't want eight different systems built. We don't want New South Wales to have a system, Victoria to have a system, and so on and so forth. This should be a nationally consistent system that offers parents a broad suite of supports so that wherever they're going, they're confident they can get the support they need for their kids.
 
LEVY: One last one. Do the changes need legislative support and is the Opposition on board? Have you spoken to anyone from the other side of the chamber?
 
BUTLER: There's been good response from the Opposition so far. I've got a good record of speaking to my Shadow Minister, Anne Ruston, who's also from South Australia like me. We worked really well together late last year to deliver an aged care reform package that had bipartisan support. And we thought, I think both of us, that it was important that older Australians in that case had confidence that new arrangements for aged care had the support of both parties of government. And I think that's broadly been the approach around the NDIS, going back to the early days when Tony Abbott first decided to get on board with the then-Labor government's plan to build this scheme in the first place.
 
I'm confident we'll have good constructive discussions. But they'll have questions, as they did in relation to the aged care process. Anne Ruston will negotiate hard, I'm sure, but I'm confident that this is an area where we can get bipartisan agreement across the aisle for the benefit of the people that we're really looking after here. This has been an amazing scheme that has transformed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people with disability, and I'm determined to secure its future for the long term.
 
LEVY: Alright, well, Minister, if you can keep in touch with us because as you can appreciate, we've got a lot of people who listen to us and have so many questions, have so many concerns. So if you want to keep in touch with us and let us know how this all progresses, admittedly, you know, people are still getting across the finer details, but I think it's a good start. So for that, you should be applauded and commended. You've got a big job ahead of you and let's hope we can turn things around because as you say, it's a very important scheme that supports thousands and thousands of people each and every day of their lives. Thanks for joining us, Minister.
 
BUTLER: Pleasure, Mark.