Transcript, Meet The Press - Channel Ten

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PDF printable version of Transcript, Meet The Press - Channel Ten

22 MAY 2011

Topics: Plain Packaging of Tobacco, Private Health Insurance Rebate, Carbon Tax

Paul Bongiorno: Hello and welcome to Meet The Press.

Federal Parliament comes back tomorrow for its winter session. The Opposition is sure to ratchet up the political temperature to more than compensate for the Canberra chill. Meanwhile, Malcolm Turnbull's stepped into the breach of the leader's baton, describing Mr Abbott's direct action carbon policy as a multi-billion dollar impost on taxpayers with a dubious saving grace.

Malcolm Turnbull (Wednesday): If you take that rather grim fatalistic view of the future and you want to abandon all activity, a scheme like that is easier to stop.

Tony Abbott (Thursday): Malcolm and I talk regularly about these subjects and he fully supports the Coalition’s policy.

Paul Bongiorno: But it was the tobacco companies who blew smoke in the Government's face when it announced this session would see legislation for plain cigarette packaging.

Nicola Roxon (Tuesday): Obviously, the tobacco companies have made clear they are going to fight this tooth and nail. We have prepared for that. We expected the tobacco companies to fight us. What we didn't expect is that Mr Abbott would also be fighting us.

Paul Bongiorno: Health Minister Nicola Roxon is a guest. And later, Amnesty International runs a human rights spell check over the Government’s offshore processing plans for asylum seekers. But first, Jacqueline Maddock has what’s making news this Sunday, May 22.

Jacqueline Maddock: Thanks, Paul. Here are the headlines. Anti-smoking campaigners are pushing for a licence to smoke, with many predicting that cigarettes could be banned within a decade. The ‘Sunday Age’ quotes one campaigner saying that a ban on smoking could be a reality within 10 to 15 years. The Shadow Immigration Minister, Scott Morrison, has called for an inquiry into Australia's detention centres, following revelations of violence, disease and a blowout in costs.

Scott Morrison (Today, Insiders) : Today, as you know, I have called for an inquiry into the immigration detention network, for the simple reason that we have a critical incident occurring on an average of more than three times a day, we’ve got a record population now in our detention.

Jacqueline Maddock: Internal bickering has again broken out in the Coalition, this time between Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott. ‘The Sun Herald’ said the Shadow Treasurer accused the Opposition Leader of embarrassing him and leaving him “swinging in the wind”. And the veteran actor Bill Hunter has died at the age of 71 in Melbourne. The much-loved actor, whose career spanned 50 years and 100 films, finally lost his battle with cancer. And those are the headlines. Back to you, Paul.

Paul Bongiorno: Thanks, Jacqui. And welcome back to the program, Nicola Roxon. Good morning, Minister.

Nicola Roxon: Good morning.

Paul Bongiorno: Well, picking up on those stories out of the Fairfax papers this morning, licensing of smokers? Something like the proposals for dealing with gambling addicts at the poker machines? Do you support that idea?

Nicola Roxon: Well, look, it is not part of our policy. Our policy is very clear. We're trying to introduce plain packaging. That is a world first.

We have already got a big fight on our hands to do that. We think that making sure that we are taking away the last marketing tool for big tobacco is a very important step. I certainly understand why public health advocates want to keep pushing the boundaries but we are already trying to break new ground here. We are finding resistance not just from big tobacco but also, unfortunately, from Mr Abbott and the Liberal party.

Paul Bongiorno: What about a smoking ban within 10 to 15 years? That report cites other countries that are heading in that direction. Is that really the logical conclusion of what you are on about?

Nicola Roxon: No, I don't think it is. I think what is logical about it is if tobacco were a brand new product today, seeking to come on to the market, and we knew about tobacco what we know now, it would not be a legal product. But the truth is that it has been a legal product for many, many years. That is the truth of history in Australia. We're trying to make sure that we tackle the last remaining method that tobacco companies use to market their products. We know it is successful in marketing their products, because we know that they are determined to stop it and they are very fearful about what it will do to their business. We know it affects their profits. It means it is good to reduce the number of smokers. That is the public health aim we have.

Paul Bongiorno: There are a lot of addicts out there. Do you think 10 to 15 years is wishful thinking on the part of health advocates? A ban?

Nicola Roxon: That is a question you would have to put to them. We have a very big fight on our hands.

Unfortunately, what you are seeing is Mr Abbott acting as the parliamentary arm of big tobacco, saying that he will not support this sort of measure, even though we are very confident we will help reduce the number of new smokers.

Dealing with the people who are currently addicted is one thing, stopping new people getting addicted to what is a killer drug is very much our focus.

Paul Bongiorno: Well, we have seen how much a big a fight you have got on your hands. Already the full page ads are appearing around the country. Big tobacco is threatening to flood the market with cheap cigarettes and that worries the Opposition.

David Crow (Tuesday): In our view, this bill will backfire on the Government leading to more people smoking and more kids smoking.

Tony Abbott (Tuesday): My anxiety with this is that it might end up being counterproductive in practice.

Paul Bongiorno: Wouldn't the simple way to stop it being counterproductive would be to raise the excise on cigarettes?

Nicola Roxon: That is a question for Mr Abbott. It seems to me that Mr Abbott is finding it very difficult to say ‘no’ to big tobacco and the question has to be if the millions of dollars of donations are affecting his judgement - Mr Abbott is a former Health Minister, he knows that this can have an impact…

Paul Bongiorno: Yes, but just going to the threat of big tobacco - British Americans who flood the markets with cheap cigarettes, which they say will make it easier for kids to buy and to smoke, wouldn't the way to stop that would be to raise excise? Have you looked at doing that?

Nicola Roxon: We don't have current plans to do that. I think this is a lot of huffing and puffing from big tobacco. What we know is that big tobacco have not dropped their prices when we have increased the excise in the past. They don't usually like to cut their profits in order to make a point. If they want to do this, of course then we will consider any response.

But I think that big tobacco have a very detailed strategy to try to knock over plain packaging, part of their strategy is to keep the Opposition on side. I don't think Mr Abbott should let himself be played by big tobacco in this way. At the moment, it seems like he is an active participant.

Paul Bongiorno: If they do keep Mr Abbott and the Opposition on side, are you confident that you have the support of the Independents to get your bill through the House?

Nicola Roxon: Well, I'm confident that this is a really important public health measure. I'm confident that across the country, even smokers - even smokers - understand why we would want to do this and do not want their children to become smokers. We are of course talking to different players in the parliament. I would hope that this is the sort of thing where you would have the major parties, not just the Independents or the minor parties, supporting this measure. You have seen today that backbenchers in the Liberal party support this measure. I understand that it has not even yet been to the party room. I think it is about time Mr Abbott took the temperature of his own party.

Paul Bongiorno: Well, finally, in this segment, do you accept that it is a black market for cigarettes already out there, robbing the revenue of about a billion dollars a year and won't plain packaging make it easier for the counterfeiters?

Nicola Roxon: I don't accept that there is a market of that size. There certainly is a black market. It is much smaller than all of the figures that keep being used by big tobacco. Our Minister O'Connor, who is responsible for Customs, has repeatedly put out the detailed information that we have.

Big tobacco doesn't like it because it doesn't fit their argument. I think this spectre of criminal gangs and the sky falling in, really doesn't focus on the true issues which are what are ways that we can do - what action can our Government take and the community take to reduce the number of people starting an addictive habit? We think plain packaging can do that. Mr Abbott needs to be on board.

Paul Bongiorno: Time for a break. When we return with the panel, what is the prognosis for the Government's plans to amputate the health insurance rebate? Our ‘weasel word of the week’ goes to Nationals Barnaby Joyce. Talking about the carbon tax being put on petrol.

Barnaby Joyce (Wednesday): Petrol refinery is going to be out because if they are not out, they are in, and if they are in it is in on petrol. The next thing they say is it’s at the start. The word they use is initially, another weasel word.

Paul Bongiorno: You are on Meet the Press with Health Minister Nicola Roxon and welcome to the panel Stefanie Balogh from ‘The Australian’ and Steve Lewis from News Limited. Good morning, Stefanie and Steve. The Government will make another attempt to cut the costs of the private health insurance rebate by means-testing it. The move looks good in the Senate but may struggle to get the support of the Independents in the House.

Tony Windsor (Sunday 15 May Meet The Press): I have got some concerns in relation to private health insurance. I didn't support the changes last time. I think there are two occasions now where there have been attempts to vary the rebate arrangements. I will be looking closely at it. I have not seen a reason why I would not change my view from previous occasions.

Stefanie Balogh: Minister, it appears you will struggle to win over the Independents for the private health rebate changes. Are you confident of winning them over?

Nicola Roxon: I think that there is more work that's required and that includes us explaining more clearly to the community as well as to the parliament that these changes are simply a change targeted at the highest income earners in Australia. I don't think that taxi drivers or nurses or teachers should be paying for my private health insurance. I think that there are certainly ways that we can make this system very strong and continue to support millions of Australians on middle and low incomes without actually having to contribute to high-income earners, who are keeping their private health insurance irrespective of this rebate.

Stefanie Balogh: One of the problems you have though is that the rural Independents, particularly Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor, are supportive of it and have a number of private health insurance patients in their electorates. Are there any more new arguments you can use?

Nicola Roxon: I don't think they do have high numbers of privately insured people in their electorates. Regional Australia is usually quite low because there are often not many private providers where consumers can use their services in a lot of regional Australia. They also represent electorates where there are a lot of low-income earners who would not be affected in any way by these changes. I think we will need to talk through with them why we believe these changes are important and our confidence that they will continue to benefit, the vast majority of Australians, who have private health insurance. Clearly, that work is to be done. Last two times, of course, there were arguments about this proposal not having been taken to the public. This was our policy, very clearly. It has been for two years. We took to it the last election. We feel that that argument has been removed. And, obviously, we will be discussing it closely with all members of the parliament.

Steve Lewis: Minister, how prepared are you to compromise on this particular bill? We did hear Tony Windsor say essentially he will be voting ‘no’, as I think he has been voting previously. Rob Oakeshott has supported it once, voted against it another time. Are you prepared to compromise to finally get it through?

Nicola Roxon: Well, I think we need to focus on what this delivers for us. If this measure is able to be passed, it means that there will be hundreds of millions of dollars in the coming decades that are in the health budget that are being targeted to middle and low income earners and keeping our health system sustainable. If we don't do it, then, of course, the pressure always arises. What other sorts of cost measures do we need to look at, and savings measures do we need to look at? I think that this is a sensible measure. It keeps the balance between public and private health in Australia, which has been very successful. But I think we have a bit of work to do to calm people down, that, as in the past, we have health insurance industry arguing, a little bit like big tobacco but for very different reasons, that the sky will fall in. Unfortunately, industry doesn't do themselves favours when they exaggerate the impacts of particular measures. You are even seeing some of the individual insurers coming out and making those sorts of comments now themselves.

Paul Bongiorno: Minister, we have a question for you from Twitter and Facebook from Christian Piggott. “What price pressures will the carbon price have on the health industry?”

Nicola Roxon: Obviously there will be price impact but energy prices and introducing the changes that we are talking about are a pretty small component of the costs of running the health system. And, in fact, it is not just a zero-sum game. Climate change has a whole lot of other risks to human health as well. We need to look at vector-borne diseases and others now coming further south, for example in Australia, we need to look at other sorts of illness and disease that can be caused if you do nothing. So we're really in a position where we don't believe you can do nothing. We think that the costs will be minimal in the health industry. Energy prices and others being quite a small component of the cost of running the health system.

Steve Lewis: Minister, one of the problems the Government has faced is that there is a perception out there that Julia Gillard broke her promise at the last election. Do you accept as a senior minister that there is a fundamental problem selling the carbon tax because the electorate believes they have been dudded?

Nicola Roxon: Well, I think that the community is uncertain because they are faced with a complex problem, where we are putting forward a solution, one that we don't believe we can afford to ignore. We have a very aggressive campaign and a negative campaign being run by Mr Abbott. We're shortly to be able to release a lot more of the detail about how consumers will be compensated for any changes in their family budgets. We need that information to be out there. I think the public is increasingly understanding the choices, but, of course, that is going to be a challenge until all the information is in front of them and they can properly digest it without just the very simple but ultimately not that constructive negative campaign being run by Mr Abbott.

Paul Bongiorno: On Monday, Westpac CEO Gail Kelly was critical of how the Government is selling its carbon tax message.
Gail Kelly, Westpac Ceo (Monday): And I think just to remember to paint the vision and the story of what we try to do and why we try to do it. Some of that "what are we trying to do here", create a more sustainable future for our children, our grandchildren, in the wonderful land of ours, some of that vision and story I think should be retold.

Stefanie Balogh: You talked about compensation. Why aren't we hearing more, as we did before, on the damage it will do to the Great Barrier Reef or other environmental damage in relation to climate change?

Nicola Roxon: Well, I think that people have been hearing a lot about climate change, a lot about our reasons for acting. Of course, people can always hear more. We, as a Government are out pursuing and selling our messages as best we can. We do rely on the media to be a conduit for that and I'm not sure that we always get as much of the coverage as we would like for some of our explanations but ultimately, that's life. We will keep doing what we are doing, more and more information is being made available. The Prime Minister and Minister Combet are working through very detailed negotiations and consultations with parliamentarians, with industry and with others. I think in the coming months, this debate will change as people understand more and more why the Government is acting and why it would be foolhardy for us to ignore the need to act.

Paul Bongiorno: Thank you very much for being with us this morning, Nicola Roxon.

Ends.