Transcript of Interview - With Neil Mitchell – 3AW - Melbourne - 8 April 2011
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TOPICS: PLAIN PACKAGING OF TOBACCONeil Mitchell: I really want to get your views, if you're smokers, if you're a young person, will plain packaging dissuade you?
On the line is the Health Minister, Nicola Roxon. Good morning.
Nicola Roxon: Good morning, Neil, how are you?
Neil Mitchell: Well, thank you. Now this is really untried, isn't it? Have you read the latest research from the UK Centre for Tobacco Studies?
Nicola Roxon: I certainly have had a look at a lot of research around the world, and this is world-breaking, so you're right that there is some level of experiment, but there certainly is a lot of research that shows us, particularly how young people would bond to plain packaging, and we think that this is a good opportunity to get rid of the last way that tobacco companies market their products.
Neil Mitchell: Where does the - the research you're basing it on, where's that from?
Nicola Roxon: Well, we've done research here, but there is also other research that our prevention taskforce has looked at internationally, but also that the World Health Organisation used, to make plain packaging, and they have recommended that plain packaging be a step that countries consider taking in their fight against tobacco.
Neil Mitchell: And what research have we done here?
Nicola Roxon: We've done research here where you compare products that are branded, with plain packages, we've done research about which colour is the least attractive, we've done research which shows you which colour makes your eye be most drawn to the graphic health warnings...
Neil Mitchell: And how was that done?
Nicola Roxon: That was done through our department...
Neil Mitchell: And how was it done?
Nicola Roxon: What do you mean? We have groups of people that are...
Neil Mitchell: So how many...
Nicola Roxon: ...brought in, smokers and young people were particularly targeted for this testing...
Neil Mitchell: So focus groups, were they?
Nicola Roxon: Look, I think it's a range of different things, I don't conduct it myself, obviously, the department does, but they get...
Neil Mitchell: Oh, no, no, but would you make that research publicly available?
Nicola Roxon: I think that a summary of some of it is already publicly available, and we certainly could provide information about who our target groups were, but there's no mystery in this, we have...
Neil Mitchell: But...
Nicola Roxon: ...released the packaging - sorry, just let me finish, we've released the packaging in the bill for a 60 day consultation to exactly have the discussions that you and your listeners will be having about whether it might work for them, what might be more or less attractive, to make sure that we've got as broad a range of feedback, before we introduce the legislation into the parliament.
Neil Mitchell: Well, are you aware of the UK Centre for Tobacco Studies?
Nicola Roxon: I am aware of them, yes.
Neil Mitchell: Okay. Well they've released research in the past 24 hours in fact, that says this - plain packaging will not stop a smoker, and will not make a smoker cut back. Do you accept that?
Nicola Roxon: No, I don't accept that it won't, I do accept that there are many people who won't be able to give up their addiction, we want to make sure that we can do everything we can that helps people quit an addictive habit, but very importantly, stops people from taking up the habit...
Neil Mitchell: Yes, but I'm getting to the science of it, you see, the UK Centre for Tobacco Studies has monitored the eye movements of smokers, and that's what they're basing it on, have we gone through that exercise as well?
Nicola Roxon: I can't tell you the way that it's been monitored here, I'm certainly happy to take that on notice, but there is, as I said, a lot of evidence about the way people make choices, there's surprising evidence which shows you things like the same cigarette, in different packaging, people will think is more attractive, or a better flavour, and those sorts of things, it's obvious, because that's why tobacco companies spend a lot of money on the design of their product.
Neil Mitchell: I understand, what I'm looking at is the meat of the research here, and this is reported in the scientific journal, Addiction, the UK Centre for Tobacco Studies said it would have little effect on people who smoke.
Nicola Roxon: But there is research internationally which says quite differently, and I think the key that we're getting to here is, will it stop people who are already addicted, on its own probably not, as part of a range of things the government's doing possibly, and will it...
Neil Mitchell: Well, they say unequivocally...
Nicola Roxon: ...stop new people...
Neil Mitchell: But I mean, they say unequivocally, existing smokers are not affected by changing packages.
Nicola Roxon: Well, I think what you could do, because I know you won't want to take my word for it, which is fair enough, but I'm sure you could talk to many of Australia's leading researchers on this, and I'm sure you'll do that over the next week or so...
Neil Mitchell: Right, I will...
Nicola Roxon: ...who will actually take you through their evidence, and why they support this measure.
Neil Mitchell: Okay, fair enough. Now this is going to cost a lot of money, isn't it, the tobacco industry is already saying they'll go to court, are you prepared to fight it through the courts?
Nicola Roxon: Look, we absolutely are prepared to, and I take offence at the idea that people think that we should not actually take this action, because there's a threat of legal action, I mean if you do that, basically then any company can be a bully boy, and think they can stop the government from doing something, because they've threatened action...
Neil Mitchell: Do you think that's what the tobacco industry's doing, are they trying to bully you?
Nicola Roxon: I think they are hopeful that the threat of legal action will put us off, or will put other governments off taking this step, we don't think that's appropriate, we know we're breaking new ground here, but we think we're on strong legal grounds, and I am sure that the tobacco companies, as they did when restrictions to advertising were first brought in, as they did when point of sale restrictions were made, will protest about it, but that shouldn't stop us doing something that we think, as part of a comprehensive package, could have a positive impact on Australian health.
Neil Mitchell: So is this a case of it must be done, whatever it costs?
Nicola Roxon: Well, I don't think that governments ever say, whatever it costs, but we're not going to be in a position that a threat of legal action, or a threat about making sure we have to spend, you know, lots of money in defending our action, should stop us taking something which is universally regarded, in Australia amongst public health officials, as a good way of protecting thousands of Australians from death and disease, that's caused by smoking.
Neil Mitchell: Will you look at health warnings on alcohol?
Nicola Roxon: Absolutely, I mean we already have given consideration to health warnings on alcohol, and you're probably aware that Neal Blewett has conducted a very detailed bit of work on the sorts of information that should be provided on food, and made recommendations about alcohol as well, that we're considering.
Neil Mitchell: Would you even look at say, shock photographs on alcohol, like, I don't know, cirrhotic livers and things?
Nicola Roxon: I don't think that that has been put to us by any of the research or advocates at this stage, mostly because we're at a bit of a different point in what we know about the harms caused from alcohol, which are significant, but what is much, much clearer with tobacco, which is that there is no safe amount of tobacco that you can consume, so it is a matter of degree, and certainly we do need to look at how we can have the public be more informed about safe consumption, or safer levels of consumption.
Neil Mitchell: Well if this works on tobacco, could you ever see a situation where you'll be looking at plain packaging for alcohol?
Nicola Roxon: Oh look, I don't think that we would see that in my life time, or in my life time as the Health Minister, I think we really are 30 years into tobacco control and this is the step that's being taken as the last step, you know, remaining, to limit promotion, so there would be a lot of steps that would be taken before that would be considered, in my view, for alcohol.
Neil Mitchell: Thank you very much for your time, Nicola Roxon, the Federal Health Minister.
Okay, I really want to test, as she said, we should test it with smokers, and I'd really like to talk to young people under 20, if you smoke, or you know, you're tempted to smoke, smoke occasionally, is the packaging important?
Ends.
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